struggling turkeys discussing fornits

[Anonymous]

Of course Lon doesn't want people naming names on his website.  That would undermine his credibility as an impartial "ed con" if people were able to name all the people he originally worked with at RMA in the 80's.  It would expose the quid pro quo that has been built over the decades.

I'm also quite sure that Lon would really nervous if all the people there started talking about Scott Wooldrige and the abuse that he had to put up woth from both the students and staff.

I would also be wary of listening to anybody on that website that is a former student and now has children in the programs. Even more so those that had initially placed their children in one program...only to find out that it "didn't work" then subsequently enrolling them in the full blown 2 year program.

The reason that I would question these people as a parent is that they all seem to espouse these so called "tools" that they were given to work with and refer to how they would have been dead or in jail unless their parents had placed them there.  Those are some pretty extreme scare tactics...RMA vs Dead vs Jail...hmmmmm...none of my pre RMA friends are dead or in jail...go figure.

So....what exactly are these "tools"...can anybody name them other than just by using some statement that was beaten into our brains that "I am a loving and kind person" or "I am a powerful and giving person"...yeah...remember...it was two words...I guess I just got the wrong two words.

Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool?  funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world.  Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?

I also find that the "lack of civility" that Lon and his (I'm assuming not accusing) commission earning cronies seems to come more from people that are pro-programs.  I see people come on this board that ask for help as they feel that there was something wrong with their experience only to be called pussies or insulted in some way shap or form only because they had somehow "failed" the program.  This is disturbing to me as belittling somebody is supposedly not the "program" way.

I wonder if Maggie gets a discount on her childs program for steering parents in that direction...who knows...maybe by the time she has sent her 4th child there she will be getting it for free....provided she sends enough referrals Lons way.

I probably wouldn't be picking out Maggie...and I actually thought she was a pretty nice person at RMA but she crossed my line by stating that she had never seen any abuse at RMA.  It is either a selective memory or a flat out lie.

None of us ever knew the students "pre-RMA" so it would be impossible to say how they would have ended up had they not gone there, but if the programs were all that they claimed to be, there would never be a board such as this one.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-17 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Of course Lon doesn't want people naming names on his website.  That would undermine his credibility as an impartial "ed con" if people were able to name all the people he originally worked with at RMA in the 80's.  It would expose the quid pro quo that has been built over the decades.



I'm also quite sure that Lon would really nervous if all the people there started talking about Scott Wooldrige and the abuse that he had to put up woth from both the students and staff.



I would also be wary of listening to anybody on that website that is a former student and now has children in the programs. Even more so those that had initially placed their children in one program...only to find out that it "didn't work" then subsequently enrolling them in the full blown 2 year program.



The reason that I would question these people as a parent is that they all seem to espouse these so called "tools" that they were given to work with and refer to how they would have been dead or in jail unless their parents had placed them there.  Those are some pretty extreme scare tactics...RMA vs Dead vs Jail...hmmmmm...none of my pre RMA friends are dead or in jail...go figure.



So....what exactly are these "tools"...can anybody name them other than just by using some statement that was beaten into our brains that "I am a loving and kind person" or "I am a powerful and giving person"...yeah...remember...it was two words...I guess I just got the wrong two words.



Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool?  funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world.  Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?



I also find that the "lack of civility" that Lon and his (I'm assuming not accusing) commission earning cronies seems to come more from people that are pro-programs.  I see people come on this board that ask for help as they feel that there was something wrong with their experience only to be called pussies or insulted in some way shap or form only because they had somehow "failed" the program.  This is disturbing to me as belittling somebody is supposedly not the "program" way.



I wonder if Maggie gets a discount on her childs program for steering parents in that direction...who knows...maybe by the time she has sent her 4th child there she will be getting it for free....provided she sends enough referrals Lons way.



I probably wouldn't be picking out Maggie...and I actually thought she was a pretty nice person at RMA but she crossed my line by stating that she had never seen any abuse at RMA.  It is either a selective memory or a flat out lie.



None of us ever knew the students "pre-RMA" so it would be impossible to say how they would have ended up had they not gone there, but if the programs were all that they claimed to be, there would never be a board such as this one."

HOW DARE YOU ATTACK ME PERSONALLY. WHAT A COWARD. THE SAD PART IS THAT YOU AND I PROBABLY SHARE SOME GOOD TIMES. I DONT KNOW. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW MY STORY. AND AS YOU HIDE BEHIND AN ANONYMOUS POST, I STATE WHO I AM... I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.
I STAND BY THE FACT THAT I NEVER EVER SAW ANY PHYSICAL ABUSE. I ALSO STAND BY THAT I CHOOSE TO REMEMBER THE GOOD THINGS. PERIOD. MY STORY AFTER RMA IS LESS THAN PERFECT... PRETTY FUCKED UP... THE DIFFERENCE IS, I  CHOOSE TO DWELL ON WHAT IS POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE. LIFE IS TOO SHORT.

BUT ATTACKING ME AND  BRINGING MY OTHER  CHIDREN INTO THIS IS NASTY AND ABUSIVE. NOR IS IT FAIR TO ME OR THE OTHER POSTERS ON THIS SITE. AND I DON'T THINK THAT EVEN GINGER/ANTIGEN WOULD  SUPPORT THE PERSONAL ATTACK.  

I DID EDIT MY POST ON STRUGGLING TEENS.

[Anonymous]

Hey Maggie...sorry to tell you but as far as I'm concerned...busting somebody's dirt is fair game here just like it was at RMA.

You certainly seem to get worked up about it.  It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.

Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.

Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?

You dance around the subject quite nicely.

oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?

If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you.  Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away.  You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that.  But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-17 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hey Maggie...sorry to tell you but as far as I'm concerned...busting somebody's dirt is fair game here just like it was at RMA.



You certainly seem to get worked up about it.  It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.



Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.



Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?



You dance around the subject quite nicely.



oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?



If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you.  Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away.  You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that.  But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice."

You sound sad and pitiful.

And, again, I stand by that I NEVER witnessed any physical abuse. If you did, then you have every right to state that and stand by your experience. This is my third post on FORNITS...  not once have I discounted any one else's experience. Not once. Nor do I see my experience, or life... or whatever, as DIRT.

As far as striking a chord... no, not really... just felt the need to defend my name. I was SHOCKED to see it come up. As I am sure you would be if you suddenly saw your name show up here.

[Anonymous]

One more thing.... I added to my post on struggling teens. I specifically stated the abuse I witnessed and did not witness. I thought that "you" were some what right... I should have been more specific about it the first time. But sometimes we respond quickly and don't add everything we should or even articulate ourselves well the first time around.

[try another castle]

Is the brass key that I was given in the Summit a tool? funny...I have kept it through life thinking it was something special...but really...RMA could have handed me a rock and told me it was a tool and I would have left RMA ready to take on the world. Really...I had my words...and my rock..what went wrong?

Haha. I remember I chucked mine into the middle of a grassy area on the college campus back when I was getting my degree in the early 90s.

_________________

"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild

[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-17 18:17 ]

[Anonymous]

You sound sad and pitiful.

Why is it that EVERY single post by a programmie resorts to an ad-hominem argument? You people are pathetic.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-15 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

""

 ::rocker::

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-17 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

I specifically stated the abuse I witnessed and did not witness.

So are you saying that its ok to verbally and psychologically abuse kids as long as the intention is true and noble?  Just don't cross the line into physical violence but emotional and psychological violence is just A-OK.  :roll:

How would you describe a "propheet"?  Or the "I and Me Workshop"?  What is the intended result and how is that brought about?

I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

[Antigen]

No, I think she's saying it's good and noble to fuck w/ a kid's head and heart, even if you have to physically imprison them to get them to suck it up. And it's perfectly OK to blab to the world about every detail of your kid's private hell, so long as you pretend that the dozen or so sycophants in the reading audience don't know who you are and you're gloating about it.

On the other hand, it's entirely unconscionable to discuss those same details in tones and terms which tend not to support the idea.

Least, that's my take. I didn't see any personal attack. No name calling, just facts. And I do share that concern too. I was pleasantly surprised to find very few former Seedlings and Straightlings who were willing to put their kids in programs. Even most of the ones who swear it saved their sorry souls wouldn't sacrifice their children to that particular convinction. I'm sorry to hear that you never got out and your kids have no escape. Honestly, that's not a dig or a jab or sarcasm and it's not a personal attack. I'm as sorry for your family as for mine.

Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950

[Antigen]

Oh, and I think maybe it's not WWASP that Lon doesn't want exposed there. I think there are a whole lot of bad eggs out there. This is no different from how Straight dissed the Seed who dissed Synanon and Cinakore and on and on to present. Just one difference, really. This is advertising, it's public and Lon's been in the biz for a very long time. I would imagine a man and a corporation could pick up some pretty interesting ties living in this bubble industry for so long. I'd guess he's got fingers in a whole lot of pies and wouldn't want flies getting into any of them.

Clever dude, eh? If only he'd use his powers for good instead of evil.

The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

[try another castle]

On 2006-01-17 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-17 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Hey Maggie...sorry to tell you but as far as I'm concerned...busting somebody's dirt is fair game here just like it was at RMA.





You certainly seem to get worked up about it.  It's amazing that it only took you 24 minutes to bash my post.





Yet you are still a liar saying that there was no abuse...as you notice in my post...I say nothing about "physical" abuse...although my recollection of the "I want to live propheet" and the "I and Me" workshop must be different than yours.





Can you honestly say that EVERYBODY there was given the respect that should be afforded to ANY human?





You dance around the subject quite nicely.





oh...and by the way...why would you feel the need to state here that you changed your post on struggling teens if you stand behind it?





If you think that you can discount my post because it is anonymous...fine...it obviously struck a chord with you.  Had you reacted that way at RMA in a rap...you would have been blown away.  You state that you choose to dwell on the positive...that is good and I support that.  But dwelling on the positive while denying the negative does not do this world justice."

You sound sad and pitiful.



And, again, I stand by that I NEVER witnessed any physical abuse. If you did, then you have every right to state that and stand by your experience. This is my third post on FORNITS...  not once have I discounted any one else's experience. Not once. Nor do I see my experience, or life... or whatever, as DIRT.



As far as striking a chord... no, not really... just felt the need to defend my name. I was SHOCKED to see it come up. As I am sure you would be if you suddenly saw your name show up here.







 "

So the emotional abuse is somehow less valid?

And I don't know, but the restraint in the IWTL propheet is coming pretty close to physical abuse. Sure, they aren't beating the shit out of you, but I remember a guy in my peer group freaking the fuck out when they did that to him. He had a history of lock ups and being restrained before, so that exercise was especially traumatic for him.

And really, I think a lot of the physical stuff they did in propheets and workshops was borderline physical abuse. The point was to break you down, just like it's done in cults. How about the running in the I&Me to the point of exhaustion? Or the circle exercise or shoving each other in the brothers keeper? And I don't know about your peer group, but all bets were off when everyone had to fight for the lifeboat in the summit. People were ready to beat the shit out of each other, and the staff just sat by and watched. (I simply sat off to the sidelines and was thinking "This is totally insane. There is no way I'm getting into that mix.") There was a lot of "point to exhaustion" stuff at that school. They even said it themselves, "we want to break down your resistance."

Look, compared to straight, this is candy-ass shit, I agree, but it doesn't mean mental browbeating and mind-fuckery is not abusive.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-18 00:17:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

Look, compared to straight, this is candy-ass shit, I agree, but it doesn't mean mental browbeating and mind-fuckery is not abusive.

No, I don't think so at all. Remember that Straight was a huge organization. There were somewhere around 500 kids in St. Pete when I was there. Then they branched off. And they were in business like that for something like 17 years.

The things you hear about most frequently are, of course, the most shocking, most objectively fucked up things that ever happened there. Usually, there's an identifiable influence (like Virgil Newton) who's total sadistic delusion took the thing to whole new levels.

But the more I read up on CEDU, the more it sounds like the "normal" level of mindfuck and mental/emotional abuse in Straight or the Seed.

Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright

[try another castle]

But the more I read up on CEDU, the more it sounds like the "normal" level of mindfuck and mental/emotional abuse in Straight or the Seed.

I guess it would make sense, since they all came from Synanon.

The testimony I have read from people who went to WWASPS, straight and elan sounds a lot worse than what I went through. But like you said, straight was a huge orginization, and so is WWASPS, and they are probably only going to print the more gruesome info, as opposed to the day to day happenings.

I just know that at RMA, we never had "humble pants" or any shit like that.

However, regardless of what the situation is in terms of severity, the CEDU schools were certainly fucked up.

Well, it will certainly be interesting to read Maia's book when it comes out the 16th. I don't know if she is going to mention CEDU in it or not. I know that she has written about it in the past, but the blurb on the book looks like it is more going to focus on seed, straight and WWASPS.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-18 02:37:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:


The testimony I have read from people who went to WWASPS, straight and elan sounds a lot worse than what I went through. But like you said, straight was a huge orginization, and so is WWASPS, and they are probably only going to print the more gruesome info, as opposed to the day to day happenings.

Well, there's the matter of perception and adaptation, too, and how those day to day policies and practices always foster those more sensational events. I'm talking about the kind of things that each seem petty if you try and explain it to anyone. For instance, we had to sit straight up in our chairs.

So what? They do that in Catholic school and the military, don't they? Sure, but there are matters of degrees. We were in our chairs, unless instructed to stand and line up at a door, for a solid 12 hours most days, and twice a week up to 18 hours. And you couldn't let your back touch the chair, nor your arms or legs cross, nor your fingers tap, nor the flats of your feet leave the floor. If you did, someone would knuckle your spine or otherwise harass you. If you reacted in anyway other than silent and swift compliance, you might just get slammed to the floor by the kids nearest you then become the occasional focus of all the group's wrath for up to a few hours till Staff decided you could get up and return to your seat.

Except for one time, it wasn't me. Until that time, I thought it was all way overboard, but I couldn't understand why the stupid misbehavers kept brining it on themselves. And, frankly, after close to two years in, I honestly didn't think that what I just described could be fairly called abuse. It was just strict, that's all.

Your perceptions change a whole lot more than people like to think depending on the behavior and aparent attitudes of the people around you. Psrinques call it 'social proof'.

I just know that at RMA, we never had "humble pants" or any shit like that.

No, but you had other forms of humiliation and demoralization. Did they have the parents write commitment letters there? We didn't have that. Instead, we got to hear it straight from the script our parents had been trained to follow twice a week on open meeting nights.

Well, it will certainly be interesting to read Maia's book when it comes out the 16th. I don't know if she is going to mention CEDU in it or not. I know that she has written about it in the past, but the blurb on the book looks like it is more going to focus on seed, straight and WWASPS.
"

Oh, I can't wait either!

I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor