Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS)
Another WWASP death
TheWho:
--- Quote --- That's if you're focusing on the two students in question on the list. This is a small point, in a much larger argument.
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We dont know that, we only know of 2, there could be more. We would have to go back and research each one to raise our level of confidence and then republish the list, set very clear boundary conditions and criteria on how someone gets on the list. This is the only way the list would have any meaning otherwise it is someones personal journal.
For example if someone gave you a list of kids who died in the State of New York and you picked a name off the list and researched it and found that the boy actually died in Nevada wouldnt you question the entire list? or would you figure you were lucky and pick out the only mistake on the list and make decisions based on the data?
TheWho:
--- Quote ---On 2006-01-09 17:05:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"If someone handed me a list of kids who died at programs similar to the one I went to, I know exactly how those kids died. I've seen the circumstances in which the deaths occur. I know how easily it can happen.
As far as the accuracy of the list, someone took the time to compile it, and yes, I believe it until proved wrong. If you are so determined to do this, do it. Maybe WWASP will even pay you. Until this industry regulates itself, it's impossible to gather any data.
I am not focused on the data, and I don't think lists are even effective. The truth is effective. Stories are effective. Seeing people in person, speak truth with raw emotion is what changes things, not lists.
So I am not focused on any list, or statistics, frankly, because they don't exist. One more time - they do not exist. So why argue about it? I am here to tell my story about SCL, and WWASP, a perpsective that completely differs from WWASP's lies. That is where I am coming from. And in my experience, suicide post-program is a issue that needs to be addressed. You can't lock someone up in the twilight zone for two years with complete dependence on a program- where they couldn't kill themsleves if they wanted to- to a completely free environment and not expect negative results. It's a flawed program.
I know who you are. I've seen the numerous endless discussions about statistics and lists, and I won't to go down that endless road with you. So, good luck with your lists- I already have mine.
Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill
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[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-09 17:07 ]"
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Okay sorry --
Why is everyone so afraid of exposing the truth about these programs? Everyone talks about it, about the horrors and the stories. How parents shouldnt send their kids there etc. Carry torches to burn places down, preclude every death with conspiricy.
I havent seen anyone step up and say "We are tired of our kids getting hurt, lets start tracking what these places do and present our findings, lets do something"
All we hear is "There is no data....... all the data would be false anyway....... I am convinced the programs are wrong and that is all that matters to me........If you havent been there you wouldnt understand.....parents are idiots for sending their kids there"
Anonymous:
I would say that the Internet is a great tool for change. Since discovery-academy-forum.com was created, enrollment has decreased to about half of the numbers they previously maintained with years of consistency. Exit Plan may not be standing on the steps of Congress, but those like him who take the time to share their experiences are definitely making a difference. Potential parents can find these sites through simple web searches and now have access to a wealth of information. Sure, there's some swearing and slurs to wade through, but the underlying messages are scarily consistent from students there in '89 up to '05. If the program trolls weren't being hit where it hurts (their pocketbooks), I think they'd stick to recruiting and stay out of these forums.
As others have stated, we may never be able to conduct a valid study on how 100% of students turned out or why they made those choices. But I think the list of names is much longer than the one from my local public high school, or anyone's local public school, for that matter. When I hear names like Karl, Zach, and Valerie, I realize that it could be anyone at all, any gender, any race, any location. I think that parents might think twice about how their kid might end up on this list if they don't act with careful consideration and find their child effective help.
TheWho:
--- Quote ---parents are idiots for sending their kids there
I didn't see anyone post this, but it's an interesting thought.
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You havent been here long. Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids. You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.
After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant. No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".
Lets keep everything the same so we can show everyone how bad the places are, if we improve them and the kids start doing well where does that leave us?
You should start listening to some of the kids who did well and from what programs and direct parents to their websites etc.
You dont have to change the world overnight, but start having open dialog with the ones that did well and exploit them. If you give people some info on what is good and bad about each program you will start to get credability....
Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.
Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.
Anonymous:
--- Quote ---On 2006-01-09 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
You havent been here long. Check out discussions where parents are looking for info on prospective programs or advice for their kids. You will see most of the time parents just get blasted and leave, the same with anyone who feels they benefited from a particular program or want to share a positive experience.
After spending some time here you will begin to see that if you are not totally against all programs and hold the believe that no one ever benefited from any of them then you are either brain washed or employed by the school or ed consultant. No time should be spent improving the system so that kids could potentially get help in the future, lets not offer alternatives except "You should have been better parents!!!".
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Yes, some people feel that way and say so. Others feel the way you do and say that. Sometimes discussions disintegrate into verbal violence....seems to be a byproduct of both the industry and the simple nature of message boards. But there is a helluva lot of good information here for anyone willing to look. All opinions are represented here.
--- Quote ---Anyway in a few months you will beging to realize that the people with a positive experience leave after a few posts
--- End quote ---
A lot of them get really scared when you try to get them to apply some critical thinking skills. They suddenly aware that the emperor has no clothes.
--- Quote ---and the ones who had a bad experience or never finished hang around forever so you feel you never get a balanced discussion.
--- End quote ---
I graduate from the place I was in. Was considered a *success* for a while. Until I started to drift out from under their control. Only THEN did I become a *failure*.
>
--- Quote ---Sorry to ramble, just sad to see all this energy go to waste.
"
--- End quote ---
Ah, but it doesn't. This site serves a purpose. You don't have to agree with everything here to get some valid extremely usefull info and insight here. If you don't find all of what you're looking for then Nospank serves a purpose. AskQuestions serves a purpose. All the Myspace sites popping up serve a purpose. Its all one little niche that each one serves that adds up to hopefully some kind of realization of what the hell is going on in this industry.
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