especially for Marshall, Greg,

[Thom]

Stripe, if you don't get help at Charter, get help somewhere.

[Anonymous]

another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.

You guys collectively need a real strong mirror.

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, Mr JU's big bad leadership skills are real evident here.  He now has gone from locking kids up and screaming at them till they shit their pants to locking the caps lock on his computer.


What a leader!


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[Thom]

On 2005-09-20 01:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.
You guys collectively need a real strong mirror."

 So....let me get this straight. Only non-steppers are qualified to insult people today? I find your comment insulting. This is what I was refering to.

I challenge you this, John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch? That's where you need to look.

The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is at best unfounded and at worst a statement from a confused mind that could probably use some help sorting things out. My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.

[GregFL]

On 2005-09-19 12:50:00, John Underwood wrote:

Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for

The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?

So glad your crystal ball functions so clearly!

I used the example of my own child in a previous post. He is a wonderfull kid that got angry over a bitter divorce and started abusing alcohol, cigarrettes and a little of the smelly stuff at 16.  I took a different less radical approach and allowed HIM to figure it out and he is about to graduate college and is a well adjusted (except he is conservative!) person.

Now, I could have locked him away in synanon seed style treatment. He may have got angry, left, ran, started cutting himself, developed a mental illness from the stress of being held captive...found himself on the outs with his family, started using hard drugs..killed himself, or any number of other negative results.


This shit happened at the seed  and continues to happen to this day in the seed knock off programs.


 You want to pretend that the seed was a dose of good medicine for all whether you needed it or not.  What a crock of bull dung!



Go ahead, close your eyes to it, press firmly down on that "Caps lock" button, and try to divert those facts by attacking me personally. It wont work.


 The program harms kids and is no place for a non addicted juvenile. Those that bullied little kids under the guise of "saving" them that want to come here and have us help them whitewash it....taint gonna happen.

But I forgive you, I honestly do.  At least what you did back then. Your attitude now is another story.

An apology to those that you had a hand in terrorizing so many years ago would not be out of order.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.

Bullshit. It was an insult.

A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it.  That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance

[Antigen]

Here's a nice first step for all former staffers. What if you were to apologize for just one thing; say the forced strip searches? You must, by now, have come to terms w/ the fact that that was pretty fucked up and unneccesarry, right? Never mind talking about the real reasons why they do that unless and until you're ready. But if you could just be bigger people than the smirking chimp and just admit w/ some sincerity that that one crime you committed over and over again was wrong, that might help things a little.

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion, in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Stripe]

On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

"

On 2005-09-20 01:55:00, Anonymous wrote:


"another stepper steps up to the plate to insult someone they don't agree with.

You guys collectively need a real strong mirror."

 So....let me get this straight. Only non-steppers are qualified to insult people today? I find your comment insulting. This is what I was refering to.

I challenge you this, John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch? That's where you need to look.

The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is at best unfounded and at worst a statement from a confused mind that could probably use some help sorting things out. My comment, although a bit on the sarcastic side, was not intended as an insult, but a suggestion.
"

What I suggested is way beyond the step-craft that soaks some of the minds here. For starters, one has to look inside first to see why the life surrounding them is so messy.  It's not messy because everyone didn't go to the seed. I see from the responses that I was putting too much information out there and was wrong to expect anything but what I got in return. My bad.  (See how easy it is to admit a mistake?)

Life gets messy and people die or meet with varying levels of misfortune because of choices we make in our own lives: choices like whether or not to stike a wife or loved one. Everything you or I do affects those around us.  Nothing we do ever occurs in a vaccume. It would be nice if we could isolate the bad effects, but we can't.

And perhaps, just maybe, your behavior or John's behavior, maybe over the  years you have influenced the choices that these poor unforutnates made.  Maybe, just maybe, on some level you might be responsible for some, NOT ALL, but some of the bad outcome.

There is no way you can attribute all the bad things that happened to those folks to not being "in a program" or on a program. That's stupid.  That's just as stupid as you getting the idea that I was saying John is "responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends."

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-20 02:27:00, Thom wrote:

The suggestion that John is responsible for the death and imprisonment of his high school friends is ...

...precisely as rediculous as to suggest that anyone's troubles ever derived from failure to embrace the Seed or stepcraft or any other cult. I think that was the point.

The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad.
-- Salvador Dali

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[Thom]

What I suggested is way beyond the step-craft that soaks some of the minds here.

I'm thankful to you for putting that disclaimer at the beginning of your post. It explains to me, a stepper, why the logic in much of what you write after it eludes me. I have appearantly, as I believe you suggest, been mentally crippled by these wretched 12 steps.....woe is me.... Oh, Enlightened one.... what must I do to be saved from this evil spell witch (intentional spelling humor) has been cast over me?  

Please let me know which of the folowing items is offensive to you, and I'll see what I can do about getting it/them customized for you. Don't bother with the God steps. He is pretty much set on them. (the rest of them look pretty much like what you are asking John to do!....say, you're not some kind of double-agent, are you?)  :scared:          

THE TWELVE STEPS (generic version)

1. We admitted we were powerless over
whatever?that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater
than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
lives over to the care of God as we understood
Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral
inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to
another human being the exact nature of our
wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove
all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
and became willing to make amends to them
all.

9. Made direct amends to such people
wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory
and when we were wrong promptly admitted
it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation
to improve our conscious contact with God, as
we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
result of these steps, we tried to carry this
message to addicts, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.

[Antigen]

I never got past the first one. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright

[Thom]

On 2005-09-20 15:30:00, Antigen wrote:

"I never got past the first one. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.

OK, hows this?

THE TWELVE STEPS (revised generic version)

1. You're not powerless, neither am I, nobody is. It's not the beer and crack frittering away the profit from mine and Dad's investment. It's our brother doing that, abeted by our sister. They're not powerless either.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater
than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
lives over to the care of God as we understood
Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral
inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to
another human being the exact nature of our
wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove
all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
and became willing to make amends to them
all.

9. Made direct amends to such people
wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory
and when we were wrong promptly admitted
it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation
to improve our conscious contact with God, as
we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry
that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
result of these steps, we tried to carry this
message to addicts, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs.

[Stripe]

Thom,

All I've been trying to tell you - and you keep diverting to the 12 step stuff, is that John Underwood, Lybbi, Susie, your hero Art Barker and every other person who held power and/or exercised it without regard to the ultimate consequences - every single one of "you people" at that shit-hole, mindfuck place called theseed do ABSOLUTELY bear responsibility and are accountable for the actions each of you took. Period.  That's it.

To quote a "no child left behind" product: "Dude, it's not rocket surgery."

You can yank justifications for your behavior out of you ass all day long. The fact that you yank 'em out for John Underwood shows me how truly controlled you are/were by theseed.  I hope the loyalty runs both ways.

The bottom line is this:  People who hide behind the program regiemes and boldly claim they are not accountable for their actions are foolish and are lying to themselves. That's just my opinon.  And we all know the rule about opinions, don't we?
See ya 'round.  [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-20 16:28 ]

[GregFL]

I hope the loyalty runs both ways.

It doesn't. Never did and never will. "love" and "loyalty" at the seed began and ended with complete surrender and total compliance. Once even the perception of any of that stopped, you were literally kicked to the curb.


In the eyes of the Seed, Thom was a failure. So was John. In fact, John hasn't even told this story, but he ran into libby some years after leaving and tried to speak to her and she wouldn't even look at him.

Loyalty? Love?  Two of the biggest lies ever told at the seed, and one of the dangers of twelve step programs in general... When you stop believing in the religion IN TOTALITY you are as good as dead , a fallen soldier. This is usually after significant personal sacrifice in the name of the group and often after substituting the group for your genetic family. There is danger in this and many people go from this point into extreme personal crisis, often leaving with no other support group and taking the misquided "steps" with them, believing they are powerless without the group and believing that they failed the group instead of seeing the truth, that the group failed them.

Thom, in answer to your question, the twelve steps are built on a foundation of error..step #1 is only true for people with severe compulsive personality disorder, not for the general population at large.

[GregFL]

On 2005-09-20 16:19:00, Stripe wrote:

"Thom,



All I've been trying to tell you - and you keep diverting to the 12 step stuff, is that John Underwood, Lybbi, Susie, your hero Art Barker and every other person who held power and/or exercised it without regard to the ultimate consequences .... ABSOLUTELY bear responsibility and are accountable for the actions each of you took. Period.  That's it.

Well, I take a slightly different opinion on that. I forgive them all in totality. I have the knowledge that for the most part, no one was malicious but just caught up in a run away train.  I too did things while under the influence of the cult that I am not proud of today, but in absence of the people I directly affected coming around here and posting, I am not going to apologize to anyone for it. Hell, I did the best I could back then to get thru it.

There are certain people I would like to apologize to if I could find them, but I don't even remember their names.