especially for Marshall, Greg,

[John Underwood]

Anyone who was able to free themselves from drug abuse on their own should be congratulated and consider themselves very lucky, maybe even blessed. However, it has been my experience that this is the exception, not the rule. Though I did know, (slightly), a number of persons who were in The Seed, only three ?old druggie friends? of mine were ever in the program. One left after about a month, and I never saw or spoke to him again, nor do I have any idea what happened to him. The other two graduated the program. One I continued to have contact with for a number of years and she did great. Never used drugs or drank alcohol again, married, kids, great life. The other I last saw about three or four years(?) after she graduated the program and at that time she was doing well, clean and happy. That?s as much as I know.

As for those who weren?t in The Seed, one of my best ?druggie friends,? Dave R., is a practicing dentist here in Broward County. Another, Rich S., was a co-worker of mine for a lot of years after I left The Seed. He still smokes and deals pot, quit the hard stuff in the ?70s, and I suppose you could say he?s doing okay, married to the same woman for 20+ years, good kids, successful in his career. Another, Chris C.,  I ran into just a few years ago in Indialalantic. He was the seafood manager at a Publix. He stated that he had found Jesus, moved to Cocoa to return to surfing and his music.

These are/were most my other friends:
Bob L. was shot and killed by North Miami Beach police in a shopping center parking lot in Sunny Isles. Dicky Y. was shot and killed by another friend, Rob J., who, to the best of my knowledge, is spending his life at Stark. Dick R. was shot and killed while attempting to purchase a large quantity of pot in Mexico. Alan S.(he was the 1st), Melanie T., Rich B., Kevin T., Joey R., and Kenny M.(QB of my high school football team, consensus All-Broward player of the year) died from overdose. Mark C. (National Honor Society student, class pres. at So. Brwd. H.S.) died from serum hepatitis. Two died in Vietnam, one in action, the other of a heroin overdose in Saigon. Ronnie B., 2 Bobby D.s, Dale F., Dale W., Bruce H. spent the ?70s and ?80s under the care of the Florida Dept. of Corrections, after that, I have no idea what happened to them. Mike S. was committed to South Florida State Hospital for a long period of time, but I did hear (15 or 20 years ago) that he was alive, got it together, and was doing very well. Russ J., I ran into about ten years after I left The Seed at the KMart in Oakland Park, he was still at the methadone clinic. He informed me that an old girlfriend of mine, Debbie A., was also still on methadone maintenance. Paula Y., another old girlfriend and another National Honor Society student at Nova H.S., moved to San Francisco with the intent of finding druggie paradise, and while being held against her will, was force fed a combination of methedrine and LSD, repeatedly ganged raped over a period of several days, and then institutionalized in California. She moved back to Florida after her release and continues, to this day, to be on medication and under psychiatric care. As for my  best friend of the time, Dave H., (former ?druggie boyfriend? of one of the successful Seed grads), he died from gangrene that resulted from a drunken motorcycle accident. The list goes on and on and on...

Most of the above I knew pre-drugs and they were good kids, a few were very, very good kids. A few were mean, nasty, hateful sobs, and in trouble long before drugs, but only a few. Some I surfed, played baseball or football with, or a combination. Some I just knew from school.
These were real people, not the product of hypothetical speculation or homemade philosophy about what happens to teenage druggies, real human beings. A lot were kids I grew up with, played with, saw almost everyday of my life. NOT anonymous subjects of some report published by Joe Schmoo, P.H.D. or a committee of Dr. Schmoos or some politically motivated government report or self-promoting investigation. REAL PEOPLE! Kids I laughed with, have great, great memories of, kids who I spent time with when young, speculating about what we would be when we grew-up, who we?d marry, how many kids we?d have, when we?d get laid and who would be first, etc. Real people who I knew well, people who  were much like me, and I believe would have benefitted as much as I did from The Seed, if they had been as lucky as me.

I should also mention, specifically for those of you with crystal balls in your heads or just enamored with your own musings, at age 15, not a single one, NONE, of the aforementioned, (including myself), had ever used an illegal drug. Some had used alcohol, myself included, but most, nothing!

[Antigen]

John, from the sound of it, the Seedlings you happen to know about didn't fare any better or worse than the non-seedlings you happen to know about.

And that's all the validity you present; just whomever you happened to run across or stay in touch with. Here's some info on some honest to God, peer reviewed (under protest by Enoch Gordis), scientific studies of the question:

http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html

Lucky indeed! According to one NIAAA study, people who abstained from any kind of formal intervention have fared better than those who received formal treatment.

Cult: A religion with no political power.
--Tom Wolfe, American author

[marshall]

Now that was a great post, John. I have no doubt about what you're saying regarding your old friends. I imagine we'd find similarly poor rates of recovery in true alcoholics (as opposed to problem drinkers) which is why I specifically stated that the numbers & outcomes for those groups (heroin addicts & alcoholics) would probably be much different from my own experience. If the whole deadinsaneorinjail thingie originated from your own experience it would certainly make sense that you would believe and promote it. It was not my experience. The only junkie I ever met was an old guy that came around a friend's house looking for some acid to get him thru being out of junk.

A treatment appropriate for a heroin addict may not appropriate for a teen pot smoker or casual drug user though. A one-size-fits-all approach to substance abuse is not a good idea imo. I'm glad things worked out well for you. I'm glad you and others aren't junkies, dead, etc. This doesn't change my view of coercive programs like the Seed. As Greg mentioned, you could have also been kidnapped by an obscure fundamentalist muslim group and forced to imbibe their philosophy and that may have also caused you to kick drugs. They may have taught you lots of wonderful ideals too. That still wouldn't mean that kidnapping you was the right thing to do or that your madrasa teacher (maybe Osama?) had it all together. Others credit the Straight rehab and the many similar clones with their own sobriety. That doesn't excuse the existence or methodology of those programs either. Two wrongs do not make a right.

My observations about so many people quitting casual drug use (not heroin addiction or alcoholism) on their own (or with the support of their family, friends, church, etc) is also the product of personal experience, not of any studies by the good doctors you mentioned. As a side note, several of the seed graduates I had contact with over the years returned to drug use at some point and one tried to commit suicide right after graduation (you probably remember the person). All sorts of conclusion can be drawn from personal experience. Though at the core we are all very similar, we each have unique experiences and memories.

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.

[cleveland]

Great post, John.

I too lost High School friends to drugs, suicide, alcohol, and violence. This was a middle-class, suburban American world circe 1979. My list is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours. And of course, I left for college and the Seed and didn't look back much, so I don't know what happened to most of them.

I had a couple of very close friends. One went on to have a stellar career in music - he's well-known today and regularly appears on TV. He's married, has kids and is very happy. Another went to prison for selling -  suffered terribly there, had his teeth knocked out, was sexually abused - when he left, he joined a mothorcycle gang and lost his legs in an accident. He's a wreck; the last I saw him, he was a sad guy who got high just to get by. A third friend got his girlfriend pregnant at 17, married her and joined the army. He dropped out, started drinking, and was briefly homeless; he is now reunited with his wife, has a great job, and is a pretty happy guy.

Other high school acquaintences died in car wrecks, drowning, and suicide. The only person I ever knew who actually went into the Seed, besides myself, is my brother. I will let him tell his own story, but he is a successful guy. I do remember at one post-Seed point though, he told me he believed in nothing.

My family has suffered from alcoholism, which has probably been a response to depression or manic depression, which seems to run in our line. Three out of four grandparents died due to alcholism (and smoking, and overeating, and working too hard), my mom has needed treatment, and I have siblings in AA.

And I still don't think The Seed Indeed Is All You Need. My own experience there was mixed. I may have had more problems to resolve when I left, or maybe not - I will never know. But I have many questions about the experience, which I am actively (and I hope honestly) exploring here.

Currently, I am inclined to think of The Seed as a variation on a cultic, quasi-religion, that started in the US as Buchmanism, went to England as The Oxford Group, had an offshoot which became AA, another that became Synanon, the Seed, Straight, etc.

What's common to all of these is a cultic devotion to a leader, a semi-religious fervor, a mistrust of reason, the use of peer pressure, demonization of all who question the group, a rigid heirarchy, and sense of 'us against them.' I am not in favor of these methods, so I must oppose the their further growth. However, I do not question your sincerity in believing that the Seed helped you. And I am sure there are others, many posting here. But that doesn't make it right for me, not at all. I believe there are better ways to deal with drug use and abuse, but they have been overshadowed by the spread of cultic thinking that started with Buchmanism and The Oxford Group. Please know, thought, that even if I am not with you, I am not against you, either. I'd like to build on what was valuable for me at the Seed - the comraderie, the spirit of the group, the humor and friendship. Those things I will keep.

Walter

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-19 11:06:00, marshall wrote:

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.

Or it could be urban legend. I distinctly remember a rumor about you, John, having returned to heroin. Don't think I believed it or anything. You should hear some of the rumors my own mother spread about me!

I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect.
--San Francisco oncologist & AIDS doctor, Donald Abrams, M.D.

[marcwordsmith]

I hate to spoil the politeness party here, but John, every time you post, you just reveal yourself to be a bigger jackass.

What exactly is your point? All these people who ended so badly, and they weren't using drugs yet at 15 . . . is this some kind of evidence that all 15 year old non-Seedlings were bound for Hell? I mean, what on earth are you suggesting?

As a 40-something baby boomer, NEARLY EVERY PERSON I'VE EVER MET IN MY LIFE did some drugs in their teens. Furthermore, everyone I knew who was in the Seed at the same time I was returned to using drugs within a year or two.

I think it is dishonorable and pathetic to trot out the tragic stories of people whom you've known, in an attempt to use those stories as some sort of justification for the Seed, and for your own role in the Seed. Just how much are you willing to contort yourself, how many rationalizations are you going to reach for, before you simply admit that you fucked up? Asshole.

[GregFL]

Damn John It seems you associated with some real losers.

 :grin:

But in all seriousness, I got in contact with my pre seed peer group a couple years ago. Not all faired so well..., one of them was a politician and another gawd forbid a sheriff!  

Still another, Dale Long, died of a drug overdose. That is about all I know of my old "druggie" friends.

My seed friends.  FUCK, now contained in here is a bunch of people that really didn't make it.

Lets start with big Frank, died of an overdose just a couple years ago...got the "spanking your bare ass therapy" from his oldcomer. How about Kienzle's brother, died recently  preported as an addict and the the seedling part of the family didn't even have the stones or common decency to attend the funeral.

Bennett Beverly...jumped off the skyway after "sucessfully" completing the program. cris Kelly, crashed his motorcycle into a tree in a suspicious one vehicle accident after graduating.  Dave Leverone..filled up a needle with Heroin and Speed and mainlined himself to death right in front of his wife and kid..another successfull seed graduate.

There is at least two seed graduates sitting on florida's death row as we wax philisophically back and forth.

I myself used in a much more destructive manner, angry at the world and totally rejecting authority...again after sucessfully graduating the seed.  In fact, almost everyone I knew that graduated the seed started drinking, smoking pot or worse after the lockup with Art, Libby and the rest of you egomaniacs.

FUCK, I don't even want to play this silly game any more, it makes me sick.

 John, you got reality problems and an ego that just frankly gets in the way of any real discussion.

The things you did at the seed, Mr John Underwood, cannot be excused by using this straw man argument.  Children were hurt there, and I was one of them, and you were one of the perpetrators.

Any questions?

[GregFL]

By the way John, I forgive you for everything you did back then.

[Anonymous]

Pathetic, tragic stories of other people and then you ask what's the point? Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for
The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?
Greg, Marc, because you two obviously don't give a rat's ass about anybody other than yourselves which you make blantantly apparent in every myopic, callous, self-serving post, doesn't mean others of us didn't care. Whining, crying, self-important, haters that still want to point the finger at anybody but themselves for the problems in their lives is who you are. Lie, deny, spout  philosophy 'til hell freezes over, it doesn't change a thing. THE SEED WORKED, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK FOR YOU, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM, AND THAT'S THE SOURCE OF YOUR HOSTILITY, PERIOD! NEITHER OF YOU HAVE THE INTEGRITY OR HONESTY TO JUST SAY IT. MOST LOVED IT AND THAT PISSES YOU OFF. NO MORE TIME FOR ADULTS THAT STILL NEED THEIR DIAPERS CHANGED. ALL OF THIS IS CRYSTAL CLEAR TO ANYONE WITH EVEN A TINY PORTION OF A BRAIN THAT READS WHAT YOU WRITE.
John U
To be continued...You really don't believe that I have any intention of letting either of you off the hook this easy I hope!

[marcwordsmith]

Greg, it looks like the nonentities are after us again.

Strong words from "Anonymous" always crack me up. Glad the Seed taught you courage of your convictions there, Anon.

Or was "John U." a signature above? Hmm. Something fishy going on . . .

John, Anon, whoever you are/were, I do want to say that I'm glad the Seed worked to relieve you of your own hostility. Clearly you are a paragon of equanimity today.

[GregFL]

It didn't work for you either John. They kicked you out and wouldn't even let you back in the door or even speak to you.  You might as well have been one of those "druggie losers' you speak of as far as the seed was concerned.  

Marc nor me has indicated we have "problems" now in our lives because of anything you did. You DO NOT HAVE THAT POWER John, nor is your attempt to shine the light away from the facts onto us working here.

We are talking about events that occured 30 Years ago, NOT ABOUT OUR LIVES TODAY.

It is you that needs a reality slap straight across the cheek.

Your attempts at belittling others in order to raise yourself up on a pedestal here has not gone unnoticed, nor is it working.

Why don't you just go ahead and apologize for the things you did back then and get it over with?

[GregFL]

What a freaken joke. John U Posts a "come down on ya" in all caps and suggests he "isnt letting us off the hook".

Shove it up yur arse John. You are  powerless  here.  I am not 14 years old against your 24 years anymore.  

Get it?

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-19 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

Pathetic, tragic stories of other people and then you ask what's the point? Me and hundreds of others would be those people if not for
The Seed! How hard is that to grasp?

How hard? Impossible for anyone who dares question and investigate the veracity of the statement rather than just accept it on faith.

You're the one who's hostile, John. And you demostrate so well the problem that occures w/ this kind of faith based "reasoning". Even after all these years, you still get hostile over objective discussion about the cult? I sure hope you're not in a position of authority over anyone else, especially as regards substance use or abuse. That kind of thinking can be very dangerous.

And that's the only part of my life that is still messed up or complicated as a result of this cult. Regardless of the very minor disagreemensts (ego issues?) that cause the Straight faction to split from the mother church, this same philosophy prpagated by the same based methods has resulted in these same lunatics weilding a lot of power in public policy. Anybody who thought they were dangerous enough w/ control over a warehouse full of teenagers for a year or two ought to understand that these same crazy bastards now weild an astounding amount of influence in law enforcement, military, education, professional certification and licensing, public spending, public "science", etc.

Here's a current news item out of Salon that illustrates my point.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=32&0

So, according to your logical algorythym, is Maia a Seed fuckup too? How else could she possibly arrive at her critical notions about these philisophical allies of yours except by way of having failed the Seed?

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5617&forum=9#50637' target='_new'>Timoclea

[Stripe]

You guys know this:  You will never get an apology from this one who calls himself John Underwood.

An apology would require acknowledging a wrong-doing.  Investigation of wrong-doing would require a moral inventory of a proportions of which I don't think the seed or it's supporters would be capable of performing. It's much more than answering a series of structured questions designed to lead to only one approved conclusion.

For some reason, apology is just not in the lexicon of seedtalk. I guess it's taken as a sign of weakness by Seedlings.  It is, afterall, much easier to refuse to acknowledge or discuss such unpleasantness than admit a wrong.  

I challenge you this, John Underwood:  Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune?  What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness,  death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch?  That's where you need to look.  

You can yell at me in big letters all day long, but the bottom line is this: what you put out there is exactly what you will get back. It's no mystery.

 [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-19 14:32 ]

[Thom]

Hi John,

 I pop in here occasionally when one of my 'watched topics' catches my attention, or to say hi to my Sister, Ginger. Good to hear from you and that you are enjoying life. You are deserving of it. I am saddened to hear of the tragic loss of so many of your friends. I have a list not quite so long, but every bit as sobering. I know people who stopped using drugs simply out of maturity (blessed), but not many. Having left Florida in '83, I have lost track of many of the people I grew up with. Among my 5 siblings and me, all have used, 4 were Seed attendees, (5 if you count open meetings, making sandwiches and eating at Denny?s.)

The oldest didn't use until college, no Seed, and is AA sober for about 16 years now, and having a great life. Politically liberal, but nobody is perfect  :grin: (I don't think there is really a category like that for members of this cult. Seems to be either never used again, no thanks to Seed, or never had a problem until Seed involvement, Seed ruined my life, yadda, yadda, yadda. I am helped by prescribed anti-depressant, and am therefore considered a drug abuser by Staff here)

I am deeply grateful to, and greatly respect you and Art and all involved for presenting the option of a good life. Wish I had stayed straight; blame no one for my decision not to, very grateful for another chance.

Next Sister was Junior Staff for a bit, left for reasons unknown to me, smoked a bit for a while, now a social drinker, happy, wonderful person.

Ginger is my baby Sister. Her story is all over this site, no need for me to add anything. Anything I say can and will be used against me.

Anyway, great to hear from you. You still have your leadership skills. I see a small change in tone since you started posting. Glad you are here.