Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

especially for Marshall, Greg,

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John Underwood:
Anyone who was able to free themselves from drug abuse on their own should be congratulated and consider themselves very lucky, maybe even blessed. However, it has been my experience that this is the exception, not the rule. Though I did know, (slightly), a number of persons who were in The Seed, only three ?old druggie friends? of mine were ever in the program. One left after about a month, and I never saw or spoke to him again, nor do I have any idea what happened to him. The other two graduated the program. One I continued to have contact with for a number of years and she did great. Never used drugs or drank alcohol again, married, kids, great life. The other I last saw about three or four years(?) after she graduated the program and at that time she was doing well, clean and happy. That?s as much as I know.

As for those who weren?t in The Seed, one of my best ?druggie friends,? Dave R., is a practicing dentist here in Broward County. Another, Rich S., was a co-worker of mine for a lot of years after I left The Seed. He still smokes and deals pot, quit the hard stuff in the ?70s, and I suppose you could say he?s doing okay, married to the same woman for 20+ years, good kids, successful in his career. Another, Chris C.,  I ran into just a few years ago in Indialalantic. He was the seafood manager at a Publix. He stated that he had found Jesus, moved to Cocoa to return to surfing and his music.

These are/were most my other friends:
Bob L. was shot and killed by North Miami Beach police in a shopping center parking lot in Sunny Isles. Dicky Y. was shot and killed by another friend, Rob J., who, to the best of my knowledge, is spending his life at Stark. Dick R. was shot and killed while attempting to purchase a large quantity of pot in Mexico. Alan S.(he was the 1st), Melanie T., Rich B., Kevin T., Joey R., and Kenny M.(QB of my high school football team, consensus All-Broward player of the year) died from overdose. Mark C. (National Honor Society student, class pres. at So. Brwd. H.S.) died from serum hepatitis. Two died in Vietnam, one in action, the other of a heroin overdose in Saigon. Ronnie B., 2 Bobby D.s, Dale F., Dale W., Bruce H. spent the ?70s and ?80s under the care of the Florida Dept. of Corrections, after that, I have no idea what happened to them. Mike S. was committed to South Florida State Hospital for a long period of time, but I did hear (15 or 20 years ago) that he was alive, got it together, and was doing very well. Russ J., I ran into about ten years after I left The Seed at the KMart in Oakland Park, he was still at the methadone clinic. He informed me that an old girlfriend of mine, Debbie A., was also still on methadone maintenance. Paula Y., another old girlfriend and another National Honor Society student at Nova H.S., moved to San Francisco with the intent of finding druggie paradise, and while being held against her will, was force fed a combination of methedrine and LSD, repeatedly ganged raped over a period of several days, and then institutionalized in California. She moved back to Florida after her release and continues, to this day, to be on medication and under psychiatric care. As for my  best friend of the time, Dave H., (former ?druggie boyfriend? of one of the successful Seed grads), he died from gangrene that resulted from a drunken motorcycle accident. The list goes on and on and on...

Most of the above I knew pre-drugs and they were good kids, a few were very, very good kids. A few were mean, nasty, hateful sobs, and in trouble long before drugs, but only a few. Some I surfed, played baseball or football with, or a combination. Some I just knew from school.
These were real people, not the product of hypothetical speculation or homemade philosophy about what happens to teenage druggies, real human beings. A lot were kids I grew up with, played with, saw almost everyday of my life. NOT anonymous subjects of some report published by Joe Schmoo, P.H.D. or a committee of Dr. Schmoos or some politically motivated government report or self-promoting investigation. REAL PEOPLE! Kids I laughed with, have great, great memories of, kids who I spent time with when young, speculating about what we would be when we grew-up, who we?d marry, how many kids we?d have, when we?d get laid and who would be first, etc. Real people who I knew well, people who  were much like me, and I believe would have benefitted as much as I did from The Seed, if they had been as lucky as me.

I should also mention, specifically for those of you with crystal balls in your heads or just enamored with your own musings, at age 15, not a single one, NONE, of the aforementioned, (including myself), had ever used an illegal drug. Some had used alcohol, myself included, but most, nothing!

Antigen:
John, from the sound of it, the Seedlings you happen to know about didn't fare any better or worse than the non-seedlings you happen to know about.

And that's all the validity you present; just whomever you happened to run across or stay in touch with. Here's some info on some honest to God, peer reviewed (under protest by Enoch Gordis), scientific studies of the question:

http://www.peele.net/lib/projmach.html

Lucky indeed! According to one NIAAA study, people who abstained from any kind of formal intervention have fared better than those who received formal treatment.
Cult: A religion with no political power.
--Tom Wolfe, American author
--- End quote ---

marshall:
Now that was a great post, John. I have no doubt about what you're saying regarding your old friends. I imagine we'd find similarly poor rates of recovery in true alcoholics (as opposed to problem drinkers) which is why I specifically stated that the numbers & outcomes for those groups (heroin addicts & alcoholics) would probably be much different from my own experience. If the whole deadinsaneorinjail thingie originated from your own experience it would certainly make sense that you would believe and promote it. It was not my experience. The only junkie I ever met was an old guy that came around a friend's house looking for some acid to get him thru being out of junk.

A treatment appropriate for a heroin addict may not appropriate for a teen pot smoker or casual drug user though. A one-size-fits-all approach to substance abuse is not a good idea imo. I'm glad things worked out well for you. I'm glad you and others aren't junkies, dead, etc. This doesn't change my view of coercive programs like the Seed. As Greg mentioned, you could have also been kidnapped by an obscure fundamentalist muslim group and forced to imbibe their philosophy and that may have also caused you to kick drugs. They may have taught you lots of wonderful ideals too. That still wouldn't mean that kidnapping you was the right thing to do or that your madrasa teacher (maybe Osama?) had it all together. Others credit the Straight rehab and the many similar clones with their own sobriety. That doesn't excuse the existence or methodology of those programs either. Two wrongs do not make a right.

My observations about so many people quitting casual drug use (not heroin addiction or alcoholism) on their own (or with the support of their family, friends, church, etc) is also the product of personal experience, not of any studies by the good doctors you mentioned. As a side note, several of the seed graduates I had contact with over the years returned to drug use at some point and one tried to commit suicide right after graduation (you probably remember the person). All sorts of conclusion can be drawn from personal experience. Though at the core we are all very similar, we each have unique experiences and memories.

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.

cleveland:
Great post, John.

I too lost High School friends to drugs, suicide, alcohol, and violence. This was a middle-class, suburban American world circe 1979. My list is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours. And of course, I left for college and the Seed and didn't look back much, so I don't know what happened to most of them.

I had a couple of very close friends. One went on to have a stellar career in music - he's well-known today and regularly appears on TV. He's married, has kids and is very happy. Another went to prison for selling -  suffered terribly there, had his teeth knocked out, was sexually abused - when he left, he joined a mothorcycle gang and lost his legs in an accident. He's a wreck; the last I saw him, he was a sad guy who got high just to get by. A third friend got his girlfriend pregnant at 17, married her and joined the army. He dropped out, started drinking, and was briefly homeless; he is now reunited with his wife, has a great job, and is a pretty happy guy.

Other high school acquaintences died in car wrecks, drowning, and suicide. The only person I ever knew who actually went into the Seed, besides myself, is my brother. I will let him tell his own story, but he is a successful guy. I do remember at one post-Seed point though, he told me he believed in nothing.

My family has suffered from alcoholism, which has probably been a response to depression or manic depression, which seems to run in our line. Three out of four grandparents died due to alcholism (and smoking, and overeating, and working too hard), my mom has needed treatment, and I have siblings in AA.

And I still don't think The Seed Indeed Is All You Need. My own experience there was mixed. I may have had more problems to resolve when I left, or maybe not - I will never know. But I have many questions about the experience, which I am actively (and I hope honestly) exploring here.

Currently, I am inclined to think of The Seed as a variation on a cultic, quasi-religion, that started in the US as Buchmanism, went to England as The Oxford Group, had an offshoot which became AA, another that became Synanon, the Seed, Straight, etc.

What's common to all of these is a cultic devotion to a leader, a semi-religious fervor, a mistrust of reason, the use of peer pressure, demonization of all who question the group, a rigid heirarchy, and sense of 'us against them.' I am not in favor of these methods, so I must oppose the their further growth. However, I do not question your sincerity in believing that the Seed helped you. And I am sure there are others, many posting here. But that doesn't make it right for me, not at all. I believe there are better ways to deal with drug use and abuse, but they have been overshadowed by the spread of cultic thinking that started with Buchmanism and The Oxford Group. Please know, thought, that even if I am not with you, I am not against you, either. I'd like to build on what was valuable for me at the Seed - the comraderie, the spirit of the group, the humor and friendship. Those things I will keep.

Walter

Antigen:

--- Quote ---On 2005-09-19 11:06:00, marshall wrote:

BTW, that story about the girl who was given methedrine and acid and then gang-raped rang a bell. I read of an incident exactly like that in a book about LSD years ago. It very well could have been describing your friend. Very sad.

--- End quote ---


Or it could be urban legend. I distinctly remember a rumor about you, John, having returned to heroin. Don't think I believed it or anything. You should hear some of the rumors my own mother spread about me!
I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect.
--San Francisco oncologist & AIDS doctor, Donald Abrams, M.D.
--- End quote ---

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