Author Topic: Note to John Underwood  (Read 21387 times)

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Offline FueLaw

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Note to John Underwood
« on: August 07, 2005, 08:39:00 PM »
First, I will give you credit for having the guts to post on this website.

However, some of the stuff you said simply is not true. I was physically beaten by you and Robert Chun in 1973 and 1974 in the Seed. The beatings took place at the old Tropical Park Race track facility and on State Road 84. When interviewed by a reporter several years ago Chun admitted it when confronted with the allegations.

In addition to being physically beaten you also tried to mentally destroy me on a number of occassions. You were not qualified to do what you were doing. You had no training, and like many of you colleagues on staff, were way more pathetic than the people you were attempting to help.

The Seed was based on a bunch of lies and falacies. Low rent maggots, such as yourself, perpretrated those lies on our parents and anyone else who would actually listen to your garbage. Our parents were scared and the slime that was on staff played on their fears. Most of us were to young to defend ourselves. The ones who fought, such as myself, paid dearly. If I knew then what I now know about the law I would own your worthless ass forever.

You can say whatever you want about what you and the other scumbags who were on staff did during your years in the Seed but the bottom line is that you were more full of shit than almost any human being who ever trod the face of the earth.You had an ego the size of the Grand Canyon. Nothing that you and Art Barker predicted would happen ever came to pass. Whenever a government entity or newspaper investigated the Seed, gutless cowards such as yourself and Barker, ran for cover.

I found the parts of your post very humorous. Prticularly the part about you and the other imcompetent morons thinking that Straight was dangerous. I guess a bunch of fried out junkies trying to pretend they knew what they were doing, and running a rehab, was completely safe.




[ This Message was edited by:  on 2005-08-07 17:51 ]
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2005, 12:28:00 AM »
I think it important to note that Fuelaw is not now some worthless Junkie with an axe to grind because he "Failed the seed":, but instead a seed graduate, a florida lawyer, registered with the florida bar, and currently in practice in South Florida.

Believe him or not, but do not dismiss him as a failure. He is not.
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Offline Napolean Bonafart

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2005, 01:27:00 AM »
John, If there was anything I could have done to stop the constant brow-beating you know I wuld have my first open meeting. Thank you. I understand you had a brother you could not save andI was a punk kid and didnot want to grow up. I find no fault with your treatment with me as a Seedling and I hope you can quit drinking someday comepletly on your own. I'm sober. Haven't touched drugs that are illicit for years but currently I'm a prisoner of war, and government property and I'm a full grown man with a white beard at age 45. I have a lot of money but I'm sedated thanks to the American KGB. I run my own music studio and have done several music projects since I got away. The only thing nice you EVER had to say to me was..."You're off your program". Ideed I learned from every single one of you staff members but you see. I wasn't conning it. I was there 8 months. Aas much as I hated getting sick pulling up to that warehouse every damned day. I learned to live with the isolation. I'm still a loner. I still go9 by th rules. Screw the programming crap all I ever go by is the 6th step now. Dennis knew. You see I did change. But became very worldy and scared rthe Hell out of my parents who came out to a club to hear me play oe ight and some other asshole had me thrown in straight. I escaped the next day. Don't ask me how, I never knew I could run so fast. I got a mustard tree in my back yard John. I grew it from a seed out of the kitchen. Ii'm also a Cold war vet and DHS person and other things I don'thave to tell you. except Thank you or disgracing me. I was a piece of shit and needed to be treated appropriately or I'd never be alive today. I think Nick isstill alive too. and Dennis and artie? Where are they. I thought they were going out to make the history books. Mmy oh my but I didn't even know I was a commie til I got on here. Nnow I'm just a Socialist. But still on the payroll. I've otten out of the VA completly. Died several times.Torchured. beaten, Had to fightv ib some places where my life was endangered but you know it was that little bit of faith I learned and Dennis letures that freed my mind. Also scripture that was encouraged by Dennis. The only book I ever read in my whole life for the first time was the bible and I studied it. Alas, the KGB took over and now I even have to battle the Red Skull every night. Yousee YOU never knew I was bought by my parents nd I was a Jew slave. Did you? Well I was raised bible. Ii don't like religion but I've faith in God now and I believe in Christ Jesus. Thank you. That's all I have to say..I was only 14 years old.I had to grw up quick. Before I met you I was going to stores and stealing just to cloth and feed myself. I was a street person. My arents were poor but too proudfor welfare and thety were NEVER around. YOU ALL were my parents. Nnow it still hurts ok? I'll be honest with you it still hurts from there. I've bigger problems than that to conquor. If I couldn't make peace with you on this I guess I'll just see you some other time, some other place. But I can forgive you because I know you couldn't save your younger brother. But you ALL taught me how to survive. Go be our witness. I don't even know you. But for Christ's sake I'm not a guy anymre. I'm a man now. I find no fault with this man John Underwood. I expect you all to just forget about all this bullshit and get even crap right now. ok? The games over. Stop doing this to him right now.Peace :smokin:  friend.

I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis

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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2005, 09:21:00 AM »
Just because someone is a lawyer, means absolutly nothing to me.  Actually the fue guy sorry, fuelaw sounds a bit pompous to me.  I believe that there were alot of caring individuals at the Seed.
Sure some of the staff had huge egos and were not profesionals but they gave a shit.  I felt cared for and looked after. It taught me to reach out and care about others.  Thats what counts for something in my book.  They tried to make a difference and did in my life.  I thank them for that, John Underwood included.  I know he went out of his way to help me.
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Offline John_FtPierce

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2005, 09:39:00 AM »
Sorry for the short post, I've got those life responsibilities to attend too (work).

FueLaw and The Root Of Jesse, could you post more on your life?  I know its painful, but I, for one, really want to hear more.


-- John (John Ft. Pierce not Underwood)
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Offline Stripe

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2005, 09:47:00 AM »
Anon,
Surely you do not mean to say that Fuelaw is lying.  What makes his statement any less valid than your comments about the same person? Why do you feel the need to (1) disparage his accomplishments and (2) call him pompous?  Could it be that you have bought into yet another mindset?  

Why are YOU unable to step away from your hero worship mindset long enough to consider the possibilites?
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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2005, 10:12:00 AM »
I'm sorry.  Did you not have any hero's in your life?  John Underwood could also be pompous at times, but I still liked him for giving a shit about me when I needed some help & kindness.
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2005, 10:53:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-08 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Just because someone is a lawyer, means absolutly nothing to me.


I only mentioned it to preclude a barrage of "druggie seed failure" type posts.

Whether you believe this occured or not is entirely a function of your brain.  It would be nice to hear John's side of the story tho...
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2005, 10:59:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-07 22:27:00, The Root Of Jesse wrote:

 I got a mustard tree in my back yard John. I grew it from a seed out of the kitchen.
"


sure you did...sure you did....


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

One of the funnier things about the mustard tree symbol we used, mustard doesn't grow trees, it grows on plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard#Mustard_plants


the source of this incorrect symbolism comes from a very inaacurate source...the christian bible.
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Offline Stripe

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2005, 11:23:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-08 07:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'm sorry.  Did you not have any hero's in your life?  John Underwood could also be pompous at times, but I still liked him for giving a shit about me when I needed some help & kindness.  "


I serously doubt you are sorry, and sure I've had "heros" in my life.  But answer my questions.  What makes Fuelaw's statments any less valid than JU's or yours?  

Don't you see what you are doing to me and Fuelaw?  It's the same old seed trick.  I make a valid point, and the response is not to reply to it but instead to question or somehow show me as deficient or lacking (not having heros) and then, hopefuly, you will have put me on the defense and direct or deflect the conversation topic away from you.  It's an old trick and I doubt you even know you are doing it.  I've seen it many times with my less evolved Seed friends -which I do have.  Sorry, but I don't play like that any more. It's not fun and it's pointless.

I'm glad that you felt cared for there.  You must have gotten what you needed from them.  My take on the whole seed expereince is different:  it CRUSHED compassion & kindness and replaced those very important assets with a deep a sense of worhtlessness,guilt and fear.  I think this was the result because I was NEVER and addict and my parents were conned into dumping us there by the junkie-con staff members and Art Barker.  There was more than one kind of seed experience.

And for the record, I am an attorney, too. If there was a way to sue the these bastards for the blatant misrepresentations, frauds and cruelties, I would be helping Fuelaw and putting my own money into the case. It's not a matter of holding grudges or not moving on; it's a matter of accountablitiy. We all have to be accountable eventually. Even the heros.

Sorry for the numerous edits - I never mastered typing....
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:26 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:26 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-08 08:29 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline FueLaw

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2005, 11:47:00 AM »
First, to Anon why am I pompus ?  I am not saying that other people were beat I am saying I was beat. I am also naming the people that did it. In an interview with a reporter several years ago Robert Chun acknowledged it. Will John Underwood do the same ?

The fact that I am a lawyer today has nothing to do with the fact that I, along with thousands of others, were mentally abused by scum of the earth maggots like Robert Chun and John Underwood.

Second, to John_Ft.Pierce, I moved an old post or thread back to the top. You begins with "Hello Everybody"

[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-08-08 09:08 ]
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Offline 80's Guy

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2005, 04:02:00 PM »
I haven't posted for several weeks, but I think it would be appropriate since I have been hearing the name JU from the time I was 17 years old, but never had the pleasure of meeting the person. This way I can read his posts and at least get a better idea of what he was/is like through his own words versus the second hand memories that I heard about him for over 20 years. I still remember hearing his name sprinkled in raps, often his name would emerge as part of some oldtimer's nostalgic picture of the "old days." I never heard anything negative about him, perhaps certan inner circle members knew about the confrontation between L. and JU, but it was never public group knowledge from 1980-2000+.

As I have posted in previous posts, I walked into that group in 1980. I was associated with that group much longer than JU or many others as I stayed for over 20 years, until the day it closed and beyond. . .up to the final days that ended in the "great dramatic divide," where followers were pulled between AB's army or LK's army. Of course, the "apocalyptic event" exploded a la White House Inner Circle style,(like everything else in that group), where first the privileged (JU would have probably been one of them had he "stuck it out" as some of us more ignorant idiots did for so many years) were informed of issues the group was having and then later the lower ranks would get the handmedown version of the great tragedy. The lower ranks were kept as outsiders, actually staff hoped they would not find out what was coming down. The lower ranks got to find out bits and pieces as the story mounted to a volcano. I personally was told, "there are problems at the s--d," but never was I told "the truth about some of these problems is that we caused them because we should have been honest a long time ago and now we have to cover our asses."

Bottom line the key persons on both sides (and there were several key players) forgot the first and most important rule" or "never learned it". . .you know the one about HONESTY, so they also forgot to have the decency to fill-in all the lower rank people, such as myself, about the problems at the s--d. To this day, not one of them has ever apologized for a truly hurting situation that they created out of selfishness and greed.  

I was a graduate but never on staff, though many times close to the inner circle, not a part of it. . my story goes on for over 20 years, not just 6 of my post-adolescent years. In my opinion, JU to his credit, got out when he realized that L. was on her way up (she did, after, all reign unquestionably to the end). I must say I do respect JU for at least he recognized the inevitable truth that all were not created equal witin the walls of st. rd. 84. . . especially cause that was only the beginning. Basically, many of us, if not about 90+% of the people that stuck around through the 80's, 90's, and beginning 2000, lived in complete obedience not only to AB, but to L. There was no questioning L. about anything at any time. If she said jump, we definately jumped, for many, many, many years, not just 6.  

It would have been interesting, however, to see how long JU would have stayed had he gone along and allowed L. to truly dominate as she did for over 20 years. Would he have still not lost sight of the so-called dream, which by the way any virtues that I was exposed to in that group certainly exist, and more so, in major religions and smaller groups of people that promote brotherhood, courage, friendship, and love. Unfortunately, many there had there eye on much more than these virtues.

JU is right. He knew better and did not stick around for the era of where one or two were destined and blessed to become lawyers and doctors, but not others, several were destined and blessed to be married, but not others, some were destined and blessed to be business people, but not others. . .Others should keep a very low profile becuase you are pretty much invisible to those in power, so stay out of the way, and someone will let you know when things are different.

I personally remember feeling trapped within people who did not understand me . . .I remember many of them laughed at being gay, when I and a few others (some stayed tightly in the closet)were coming to terms with who we were. . i remember being told at 17 "Oh, don't worry about being gay, we can all relate to being gay before we came in. . .it's no big deal. . .it will go away, concentrate on the important stuff. . .what's being said in the group." And then 20 years went by and I had repressed everything so deep that it has been in the last several years of my life that I feel free to be who I really am inside--true to me. Also. the constant anxiety and paranoia has stopped, the cramps in my stomach from years of living in fear of when would I be told off for being so full of shit, for fantasizing, daydreaming, wanting so much more and so many different goals than the boring, unmotivating options staff offered anytime I had to listen to their advise on what to do with my life. Thank God I stopped listening. Ultimately, I did do my own thing in terms of career and ignored staff's blatant disapproval (or was it jealousy) of how how high and how far I could shine for me. The funny part about it is that I always made sure to thank them every step of the way. . but that was not enough for them.  

Sadly, I guess I was one of the weaker ones (back then), unlike JU who had the courage to stand up to them way back when he was only there for six years. I COULD NOT FIND THE STRENGTH AT 17 AND BEYOND TO STAND UP TO THEM BECAUSE I WAS AFRAID THAT IF I WENT AGAINST THEM I WOULD SHATTER MY PARENTS' HEARTS WHO HAD PAID IN 1980 WHATEVER THEY COULD TO MAKE ME STARIGHT -- BOTH SEXUALLY AND DRUG WISE. JU did not invest 2 decades of his life into a group that really did not, at least, post 80's know what true love really was. Snitching, humiliating, discriminating, and certainly very good at trying to "read people like a book" for the purpose of power playing and conquering. Yes, there were some good things about the 20 plus years I was there. If I did not reconcile the good with the bad, I would be totally empty inside because I cannot erase all those years and the emotional and psychological impression they had on me. I do recognize, however, that the perspectives of soemone who was on staff for 6 years are very different than someone who really did grow up at The Seed. Unfortuantely, I was also sheltered way beyond JU and only started to gain real independence after it all fell  apart.  I do not resent JU or any other person who worked at that place simply because I do beleive that they thought what they were involved in was right. I still wonder how my life might have been different if I had had the courage that JU describes. . .instead i really just waited whether it was in the warehouse or back on Andrew's house for the last and final round.
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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2005, 07:14:00 PM »
One of the things I can remember very clearly is in the end just before I decided to leave the Seed was the overwhelming frustration I felt. The realization of my own inability to make my own decisions and how much control I had relinquished in my day to day life. I was often told not too worry that things would work out for the best and things would fall into place. As I grew in my perception I began to (dare I say) see the weakness around me. I began to realize that people that professed that they were a part of the group out of strength and loyalty and gratitude were actually completely weak and dependent on this group.
Even as the group had a firm gripe on my persona my frustration turned to anger, I tried to suppress these overwhelming feelings (How could I walk away from the people that saved me and loved me so much? Where would I fit into a world that would not accept me or love me?) But, I just could not keep my frustration in check. At the time I was convinced that something must be terrible wrong with me and that I needed to find out why I was being so irrational and SELFISH.
It took me a long time even after I walked away from the Seed to realize how twisted things had become. The whole point was to rehabilate people to function within the world not to hide from the world in some pseudo utopian bullshit ideal. It took me a while to give myself permission to question my experience at the Seed and find fault with some of what was taught to me as absolute truth.
Over-all the ideas were sound and true what was flawed was the human execution of these ideas. The personal ambition of some perverted the good and in the end destroyed their little world. It makes me sad to see people who are good people picking up the pieces to their lives trying to make sense of all that happened. I guess some people can argue that it was their fault for not having the insight or courage to walk away sooner but I?m not in that group.  I have personal experience of the gripe the Seed could get on someone and how hard it was to actually walk away.
The Seed was a bitter sweet experience in my life that taught me great things but at a price, but than again almost everything in life is bittersweet.    
To compare my experience at the Seed to that of a POW or a survivor of a gulag would be a great disservice to all those who actually did service those horrible places and would only attest my own self weakness.
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Offline cleveland

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2005, 07:25:00 PM »
80s Guy...you were much braver that JU, who from his position of relative privelege, was able to talk back to L, and to question AB. Even today, rereading his post, he designates anyone who questions the 'dream' of the Seed as weak, as if the only issue where 'hard chairs and baloney sandwiches.' In spite of his obvious intellegence, and his courage for posting here, he is missing the essential point. And note, he has not responded (yet) to anyone who has answered his post. Will he?

You and I, on the other hand, were low-caste members of the Seed. You know, we were taught that meekness and unquestioning obedience to authority were strengths; unquestioning loyalty was expected, and we be and large gave it. There is something beautiful about sacrifice, simplicity and obedience - I worked to achieive a Zen-like state, but as usual, some of those in power used our submission to further their own ends, whether it was career, relationships or ego. How different was this from Catholic Bishops, or political figures, or even the 'popular' kid in high school? It is human nature, but those in power cannot admit that they are in that position by happenstance and luck to a large degree.

The Seed did not empower us as fully functional human beings. I know there are those here, and I respect them, who feel different, who feel that the Seed saved them, changed their life, and taught them lessons. It did that for me as well. But I am right to question, to ask probing and embarrasing questions - after all, I gave everything for many years and asked for nothing in return, except the love I was told would be mine.

So, you are the hero, for trying to be true to an ideal, even at great personal cost. You weren't in it for power, or status, or to be better than everyone. You did it cause you thought it was right. And then you had the courage, slowly, to grow into the person you are. I would challenge anyone to deny you your humanity.

The Seed distorted the nature of 'honesty;' you have done your best to live it.

John Underwood was a name I always heard, as a leader. I respect him for posting here now but I wonder if he can take on some criticism, or does he still see that as weakness? Was he the only one free to question?
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2005, 08:53:00 PM »
I distinctly remember John and being very afraid of his presense and power. Suzie Connors was the designated Head of the St Pete Seed but John Said and did whatever he wanted and really was the acting boss of the place. When Art came he just baffooned and grandstanded his way around the place. Once he left it was JU, Suzie, Cliff and Libby we answered to and feared.
Johns seed experience  experience was a real one but it was his, not mine. Unlike john who credits idealistic life lessons to the seed,  I was scared, humiliated, belittled and wounded there. The seed stunted my emotional growth for years and caused me to hate authority and lose my family.  That is not sour grapes. John was a big part of that process...IE my humiliation and fear, but I do not blame him. I do not blame anyone. What happened happened and as Ginger said, it was errors born out of good intentions.

 I do believe that, and anyone harmed during or by the seed i hope they too can bury the pain and compartmentalize the experience.

I have come to appreciate many people who vehemently disagree with me on this issue. I too have grown from this website and now can converse with people like JU, talk and laugh, argue and make points/counterpoints, and leave a conversation feeling much better for the experience. After John and I talked the other day I think we both took something very valuable from the experience. I hope he feels the same way.

Man I would love to have the same experience with Libby or Art. I would just love to talk to those guys adult to adult. In the past it was really  me approaching the issue from the vantage point of a hurt 14 year old and that is why I lashed out at Art barker when I saw him some 25 years ago. I am so happy to be able to let go of that anger.  I wish it for everyone who endured, survived, graduated, ran from or otherwise departed from one of these programs.
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