Carlbrook

[Karass]

What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?

What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?

To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.

And of course they can't say uncle and go home.

Unless this place is different...

That's a pretty superficial description, and not all wilderness programs are the same. My kid attended a different one than Karen's, but I think there are some common elements to all of them -- living in dirt, unwashed (most of the time), with shitty food, and you can't say uncle and go home. As for the people, there were very few my son didn't like very well and they were fellow "students," not staff. No facepaint, no indian names or other stupid nicknames.

I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally. Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group. And yes, lots of wilderness-related tasks like making shelter, fire, rope and animal traps, gathering water, cooking, etc. A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next. The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.

You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.

One thing that was very clear was that not everyone gets the same thing out of the experience, and what each gets from it depends on what they put into it and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.

[Nihilanthic]

Damn you're a good lawyer  :rofl:

Now, why is it you're attacking me, and not addressing the ISSUES regarding what we know about that WILDERNESS CAMP, Charly?

This is not about me, or my 'spin', this is about those children - you are going to say "oh its not about that" despite the SPECIFIC THINGS YOU SAID. Do I have to repost them here?

You said they had to read "impact letters" infront of a group. You admitted their mail was read (it was faxed to you...). You made a point that one of the 'takehomes' was your child realized how good he had it before he was put in that place. You admitted he was not allowed to know when he was getting out!

Lots of BIG RED FLAGS, Charly, and you can't just blame that on me... YOU said it and THE WILDERNESS CAMP DID IT to your son and other children.

Is that OK? Is THAT acceptable? NO! It is NOT therapy, he has BEEN debunked, and all the links Psy has been kind enough to post backs that up. Quackery isn't acceptable, and you can't blame me for negativity becuase I bother to point that out.

[Charly]

Excellent.  Thanks.  Good summary.  I think I know who you are.  Thanks for joining in.

[Charly]

I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles.  How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time?  Carrier pigeon?  I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read.  Just not a big issue.  Nothing was censored.
Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp.  WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before.  It isn't a fixed date.  
Impact letter-  I think it served a crucial purpose.  Therapy isn't easy or comfortable.  I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either.  If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.

[Nihilanthic]

Nice doubleteam! Too bad I type fast    BTW, where are you from anyway?

I guess it's fair to tagteam vs Fornits, but It's not going to matter, ultimately.

I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally

Really? Then what is it?

Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.

Uh, that is the same thing, just "spun" with a few buzzwords. We call that "boilerplate" for a reason you know!

A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next

It's pointless unless there is some reason to go from campsite to campsite, and hiking isn't therapeutic in any way unless its a healthy person trying to burn calories or just enjoying it... and that has not one iota to do with psychotherapy at all.

So yes, its pointless, because of its utter irrelevance to real psychotherapy.

The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.

Were you in Dead or Alive in the 80s? You sure as hell do spin me right round, baby!

Inducing exhaustion is one of the hallmarks of instigating a psychological regression, and to put it another way puts a lot of control over someone. Exhaustion is not part of psychotherapy, but sleep if someone WANTS to sleep is just part of treating someone right. Also, "solo" is not actual psychotherapy, but it is part of typical wilderness program schtik.

You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.

Isn't it a damn shame nobody who runs these places, and the parents who send kids to them, even years later, can't answer that! Gee, I sure wish someone would get off their ass and answer it. Too bad we've put untold thousands of children through this before someone bothered to check.  :roll:

One thing that was very clear was that not everyone gets the same thing out of the experience, and what each gets from it depends on what they put into it and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.[/

MORE typical program nonsense! Need I remind you who populates fornits? Educated activists, ex program kids, ex program staff, and ex program parents!

There is no 'therapy' out of being stuck in a situation and made to make the most of it, just like there is no obligation or therapy out of making the most out of getting gang raped.

Their predicament is a result of quackery on the part of these camps that majorly misrepresent themself and on the part of parents who can't make a better decision, including the one to do nothing. Being stuck with strangers is because someone is selling something thier parent wants, for whatever reason, including being told it will 'fix' whatever is wrong with the kid, but then the wilderness camp says "oh its up to the person and not everyone gets the same thing out of it!".

But yet so many people with so many diferent issues are made to go through with it? Thats baloney.

BTW, nice way of sneaking in "its their fault for what they did at home to get sent there" at the end of your little statement.

I'll admit you're good at this... but its still not going to work on someone who knows better, knows how to argue, knows how to debate, and actually knows his head from a hole in the ground about actual psychotherapy vs this nonsense.

[Nihilanthic]

I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles.  How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time?  Carrier pigeon?  I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read.  Just not a big issue.  Nothing was censored.

That sure is nice. Its still read by staff, and any kid in a program or "wilderness" knows that full and damn well.

Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp.  WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before. It isn't a fixed date.

So that makes it okay? Try again...
 

Impact letter-  I think it served a crucial purpose.  Therapy isn't easy or comfortable.  I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either.  If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.

Wow, YOU, an attourney, not a psychotherapist, THINK it served a crucial purpose. Why, someone told you? Where is his credentials. Or do you think you did when you're not an expert by any means of the imagation on this at all? Where's your credentials?

Just because you have not heard a complaint about it doesn't mean its effective, its therapeutic, or its not abusive, Karen. We all know how much good it does for a kid in a program to complain about abuse... unless of course you need psy to re-iterate it becuase you assume our attention spans are so short.

Your attempt to minimize that is pretty amusing, but the effect of having to read an IMPACT letter infront of a group is pretty apparent to anyone with something called 'empathy', specific knowledge of programs and what it makes kids in them feel told to you BY someone who went through it just reinforces that more.

The bottom line, Karen, is that an IMPACT letter is named IMPACT letter for a reason, having to read it out in a group without choice is humiliating, stressful, NOT therapetic, and confrontational group therapy was debunked decades ago, whether or not you think you can excuse abuse or spin nonsense into therapy by saying "yeah well therapy is not comfortable or easy".

REAL therapists would have something else to say about that, too bad you used a wilderness camp instead.

[Oz girl]

I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles.  How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time?  Carrier pigeon?  I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read.  Just not a big issue.  Nothing was censored.
Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp.  WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before.  It isn't a fixed date.  
Impact letter-  I think it served a crucial purpose.  Therapy isn't easy or comfortable.  I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either.  If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.

Im sure no kid complains about the impact letter because behaving appropriately is an essential part of progression. To complain makes it look as if you are an unwilling participant. I dont doubt that what some parents write might be true. I just dont understand how forcing a kid to share it with the world can be seen as without humiliation. Why was it that you chose this route and not the natural  consequences of being kciked out of school which i assume would be going to the local public school for a while? Would the local school not accept your son?

[Nihilanthic]

I would just like to add that the BIGGEST complaint by people who had to go through many programs was that kind of psychological attack.

I know someone who would rather be gang raped than go through a "rap" again... she was a straightling back in the 80s. And guess how she knows that? She got gang raped after escaping straight, but didn't really get phased by it and just picked herself up and went on about her life the next day, much to her friend's chagrin.

Wanna know why? She said it was so much less harmful, hurtful, and personal and malicious... being mind-fucked in such a way can hurt so much more than being physically violated by some college boys.

I hope you never have to understand that, but a little empathy would go a long way.

[psy]

At any rate, your SPIN on things like "impact letters" which are so blatantly there to instigate an emotional reaction (why the hell did they use the word IMPACT, Karen?

My guess is that's what the program calls them.  Programs are all about "impacts" and "confrontations" and "the truth(tm) hurts".

[/quote]Common sense please...) kind of makes people get distanced from you, because you can't try to dodge specifics, finally tell them, then spin them when everyone here is more than capable of thinking for themself, and more than informed enough to do so.[/quote]

I hate to do this niles, and you have a lot of experience and knowledge in the TTI, but afaik you weren't in program.  I appreciate your concern but   please don't get offended by Karen on program kid's behalf.  There are plenty of them here to do that.

Personally i find Karen a bit insensitive at times, but she appears to "just be that way".  She's a lawyer for crying out loud. ( --> ::bigmouth:: <-- )

As much as I'm in court I can appreciate the 'skill' of spinning and arguing things, but none of this is new and you're hardly going to out-spin the peer-reviewed psychotherapeutic medical community from your position as an attourney with a program's oh-so-typical boilerplate.

He has a point Karen.  This isn't about winning a case.  This time you're more of a witness/jury as well as an attorney.  You're an "expert witness", a parent.  I have enjoy this debate because it gives me an opportunity to talk to another parent about the industry and debate it with an opposing viewpoint (honestly not that common here).  That isn't becuase Fornits censors viewpoints, it doesn't, it's because after a while of hanging around here parents usually end up saying "What the fuck was i thinking?!?!?" (if they don't get scared off... which does happen)

And at any rate this isn't about winning an arguement for yourself, its about quacks running around hurting kids and making a killing in the process, or at best, doing basically nothing but warehousing them while they grow up and claiming to have created it... and making a killing.

He's right Karen.  And if you give us the time to talk it out, we will show you the evidence.

[psy]

Damn you're a good lawyer  :rofl:

Now, why is it you're attacking me, and not addressing the ISSUES regarding what we know about that WILDERNESS CAMP, Charly?

This is not about me, or my 'spin', this is about those children - you are going to say "oh its not about that" despite the SPECIFIC THINGS YOU SAID. Do I have to repost them here?

You said they had to read "impact letters" infront of a group. You admitted their mail was read (it was faxed to you...). You made a point that one of the 'takehomes' was your child realized how good he had it before he was put in that place. You admitted he was not allowed to know when he was getting out!

And she hasn't put it all together yet.  Calm down and give her time.

Lots of BIG RED FLAGS, Charly, and you can't just blame that on me... YOU said it and THE WILDERNESS CAMP DID IT to your son and other children.

Is that OK? Is THAT acceptable? NO! It is NOT therapy, he has BEEN debunked, and all the links Psy has been kind enough to post backs that up.

I have a veritable library of bookmarks on the subject from shrinks all over the place.

[psy]

"You also mentioned that the whole point of wilderness was to take away priveliges that the kid had before so that they realise how good they had it."

I was responding to this specific statement, since that is not what I said.  

Niles, I believe you twist everything I say and take it in the worst possible light.  There is no point in my responding to you.  Your position is very clear, and nothing I say is going to sit well with you. If my posts bother you so much, why don't you skip them?

While i don't think Niles intentionally twists what you say i do think he misinterpreted your responses.  From what i understand from your posts, you didn't send him away for that purpose, but that was the result. (and i believe i already backed that up.  i sure appreciated home in program).

[Nihilanthic]

Psy, I'm not trying to overstep anything or get offended on the behalf of program kids... as I already am very offended on the behalf of people who have no voice and are being tortured. Its kind of why I'm here, I want to stop it!

I was simply trying to make a point of the fact that here, the facts and specifics are essential to any discussion, whereas in ST it tends to be squelched and all discourse is in emotional, subjective 'feely' terms.

At any rate you or any other program victim are the last person I'm out to offend or ruffle the feathers of and I apologize.

[Charly]

My viewpoint is that of a parent.  A few posters on here are parents, but most are not.  As a non-parent, you can no more understand my point of view (and therefore may regard some things I say as "insensitive") than a non-program kid or parent can understand exactly what it feels like to be in a program.  You blasted me the other times I have said this, but I'll say it again-  the LAST thing we wanted to do was send our kid to a wilderness program or TBS. We explored every possible alternative.  We talked, fought, negotiated, cried. Only with our backs to the wall, a second near-fatal car wreck, a brick through the rear window of a new car and a terrified, distraught sibling, did we pick up the phone.  

You can show me all the statistics and articles in the world, but you will not convince me that my son was abused or mistreated in wilderness.  It simply was not the case.  It was not easy for him in many respects and it was not where he wanted to spend his summer, but it was our best option and it turned out to be a good one.  I am open to learning and hearing what you have to say, but the well-credentialed therapists who worked with my son at 2N and who worked me us were NOT quacks and they cared very much about every kid they treated.  

I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens.  I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective.  Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs.  Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped?  Of course not.

[Anonymous]

I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens.  I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective.  Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs.  Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped?  .

Yes.

[psy]

I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally.

Do you know that for a fact?  My parents were sure never told the truth of the intricate details of "emotional growth" at the program i was in.  Sure they had parent seminars, and shit like that, but it was mostly an elaborate ruse and they would never dare try some of the things they normally did with parents around.

I often link to Terezin to show how this is possable.  lots of people think (oh no.  they couldnt keep everybody silent).  Well it's possable, and it has happened, and it does happen.  Terezin was a german concentration camp  during WWII which the Red Cross came to visit.  They went to great lengths to create an elaborate show for the Red Cross to convince them that the Jews were just "lovin it".  Through threats of consequences, they kept the Jews from complaining to the Red Cross and forced them to say how wonderful Terezin was.  While the situation differs in severity, the pattern remains the same.

Lots of confronting of demons

Who gets to chose the demons?  And who does the confronting?

lots of journaling

Forced?  Private?  or read by the councelors?  Read in group?

introspection

this happens natrually anywhere with silence and time to think.

and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.

Are the topics chosen by the kids?  or do the staff say "let's talk about your ________ problem".

You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.

Good luck.  no really.  Don't think too hard, and back it up with research.  the burden of proof of whether or not programs work, is on the program supporters and the programs themselves.  Please do tell if you find any evidence.

what each gets from it depends on what they put into it

verbatim Lifespring.  You pick that phraise up from the staff?

and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.

The predicament is this:  "You will comply with the program and let us into your head, or you will not leave." It's that simple.