Carlbrook

[psy]

This is a Carlbrook thread, not a Second Nature thread.  
I was posting because I was asked for some information.  I tried to give it and my purpose is not to argue and defend.  I simply am not going to do that here.

You do realize, that saying that makes it appear is if you are ignoring the questions regardless of whether you are or not.

I can assure you that my son is not holding anything back and even at one point asked me if I would lend money to the single mother of one of his Dallas friends so that the boy could go to 2N.

Cynical person that i am, i would say: "Program worked"... or "Mission Accomplished!"

3. The test report on my son drew no conclusion about programs and did not mention any. It was a very professional assessment and we have been told by several unrelated medical and mental health professionals that it is one of the most comprehensive, well-written reports they have ever seen.

Has your son seen it?  If he has would he aggree with it?

My eval by a shrink (Dr. Nelson) who gets all his business from Benchmark *cough S.O.B. cough*, was horrible.  It was trumped up bullshit.  It was well written, but the shrink I now go to was horrified by what was written.

At the time my parents thought, "ohh deary my dear.... *nail biting* ... it's worse than we thought...  we can't take him back now...  he'll fillet us alive"

The kids replies to parents were not censored (I assure you of that- our first letter from son read, "Do not believe anything the therapist Devan tells you. They just want to keep kids here long so they can make money.")

Just curious, When did that opinion change?  Do you know what made him feel that way originally?

2N was not at all based on humiliation or breaking down.  It is based on building up self esteem.

They all use this tag-line:  "it's about building them up with a new self worth" or somesuch.  I'm more inclined to believe (based on experience) that what at first is "humilation" or "breaking down" over time appears more and more normal.  Eventually the kid thinks "this is making me stronger" and associates, cruelty and emotional shut-off with "growth".

Almost like the abusive Father who says "My daddy beat me when ah wuz growin up, an it maid me the main i aim naow... so i'm-a-gonna do the saim with mah son" kids learn to "help" others through the same method.

Want more examples?  In British boarding schools there is a culture of Hazing, it is seen as a positive thing, a right of passage.  The abused systematically become the abusers under the pretext of "helping others to be strong men".  It happens to some extent in almost every school, as well as in the military.  In my opinion, it's a direct byproduct of the hierarchy (where somebody is "above" another... and begins to power trip).  The Stanford prison experiment tells us all about what happens with the corrupting influence of power/authority.

What makes me think this is your son's first reaction, and how it "changed" during his stay there.  From personal experience, when you are brainwashed, you don't know it.  You think program changed you when all it really did was overwrite who you were with who they wanted you to be.

This may not be the case in your situation, but if you haven't talked to your son much about the details of things there you might now know.  Would your son be willing to come on here and answer some questions about SN?  We can start a new thread for it if he wishes (and it would probably fit better there)

[psy]

psy-  After about 6 weeks at wilderness (and in response to a very effective letter I wrote at the request of the therapist) our son agreed that he had screwed things up at home/school.  We were told he was one of the most resistant kids they had ever seen at 2N.

Red flag.  based on what you have told me about him, i would highly doubt this to be true.  Programs often exaggerate problems to emphasize that "your kid really needs the program".

As far as coercion and being tough on the kids- some of that is necessary.  This isn't golf camp.

It is neither necessary nor ethical.  Did you feel that way before sending him there?  Tough love does not work, despite what doctor Phil may preach.

I don't know what some of the rest of you did before you got sent away

Not much... as TSW would put it if i can remember correctly "So your parnets sent you away becuase you like it both ways and had bad fashion sense" (i was a bi goth experimenting with Wicca(standard teenage growing up type of stuff))  My parent's didn't take too well to it (fundamentalist Christians).  They were scared.  They thought I was heading "down the wrong path".  I don't blame them in retrospect, they had the best of intentions, but were uninformed and got conned.

There were a few other things too... we rarely got along well, had political differences, screamed and yelled at each-other...  There were mistakes and harsh words from on both sides.

but the pain and tears our son caused his family and others was pretty bad.  It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he needed to go to wilderness. He figured it out pretty fast, as did his friends back home.

Where did he figure that out?

Why did it take 6 weeks?  This was an angry, depressed kid who had spent years holding onto anger towards his family and other authority figures. It wasn't going to change in a week.

Yup.  It takes a while to suck his brain out and plop in a new one.

As I said, 3 1/2 years later (now) our son is very objective about the whole thing.  He admits he needed wilderness- thinks almost any kid would benefit from 2N.  Thinks Carlbrook is a very mixed bag and wasn't where he should have been, but he is glad for the friends he made and for the path it let him take to get where he is now.  I doubt he will ever post on Fornits- he is way past caring about all this and is busy with his life.

Oh i can believe it.  But just in case, would you mind asking him?

I can assure you that he does not censor his remarks about these programs or anything else for my benefit.  

If anyone has read James Frey's book, A  Million Little Pieces (the parts that are actually true) you will remember his description of the "Fury" (he personified it) that he felt towards his parents.  I could really relate to this, because it is how our son felt towards us and probably still feels sometimes.  Frey didn't know why he felt this way and neither did our son.

If he hasn't figured out why... Then how therapeutic was wilderness?  If he hasn't addressed what made him mad, what good is learning to bottle up his anger and "behave himself"?

[Charly]

What made my son feel that way was that he had been taken away from his life, his girlfriend, his puppy, his alcohol and his freedom.  He would do or say anything to get that back, just as he did and said anything to get the things he wanted while he was at home.



I read a lot of what he wrote in wilderness- he and I were going to write a book but never got around to it.  I can assure you that he wasn't brainwashed.  He was really funny about going back the second time.  He settled right into it and was able to help other kids who came there "new".   He said every kid that arrived said, "This is a mistake.  I'll be going home in a couple of weeks."

I have worked with a lot of therapists over the years- both for myself and my kids.  The two we worked with at 2N were the best I have ever encountered (my husband and son's opinion as well).

[hanzomon4]

Ok no, something is not right here. Beside psy's comments, this wilderness camp is starting to remind me of every other facility I've come across. I read back over some of the comments left last night and nihil makes some valid points and you(charly) seem to confirm his points. Being forced to write letters home and being forced to read letters from parents to a group fits the profile of programs like Straight,inc. You also mentioned being instructed on how to write your letter, I know in the Straights parents had to use "feeling words" and adhere to very strict guidliness during group "talk" sessions. The only real rule was to say how the child's behavior hurt them(the parents) and how displeased they were with their child. It looks like after the 6 weeks and your "letter" he broke. Thats not progress, thats him giving you what you, and the program(2N), wanted to hear. What was the reason for not telling him when he could leave and why did he have to "agree" to go to another facility in order to be released from 2N?

I'm starting to question where you draw the line in what you are willing to except as justifiable. You say that coercion and being "tough" is necessary, thats true if your goal is thought-reform and not therapy. So I must ask what do you feel is unacceptable to do to a child in the name of treatment ?

This is what I hate about this situation... From psy's take on the website 2N seemed to be good, but the website is not jiving with what you're describing Charly. Question, is 2N licensed with the state? Do the certified counselors meet with the students or do they sign off on the group sessions carried out by the uncertified staff? Last question, Could you describe the different levels and what is required to get from level to level?

[Charly]

I am not going to discuss my son's issues and therapy on this forum. I will ask him if he would be willing to post, but he is out of the country right now.  No offense, but he simply isn't interested in these issues.  It just isn't something he even thinks about. He spent two years at a regular prep boarding school and is now in college. All of this has faded out of range.

I can confirm that he was one of the most resistant kids they had seen. Remember-he almost killed the escorts and resisted all the Carbrook therapy.  At home, when he went to a psychiatrist to be evaluated, he insulted the guy and stole the sign from his door.

He figured out after a few weeks at wilderness that his actions at home weren't working for him or anyone else and that he needed a "time out".   2N has a waiting list much of the time, so there was no need to convince us or him that he needed to be there.  

Sorry- but I do believe in consequences and some coercion. I always have- it's part of life- but I was not good at enforcing consequences.   I wanted to protect him and keep him happy, and it wasn't the right thing.

[psy]

What made my son feel that way was that he had been taken away from his life, his girlfriend, his puppy, his alcohol and his freedom.  He would do or say anything to get that back, just as he did and said anything to get the things he wanted while he was at home.

Almost verbatim what i believed in program... after about 6 months.  Losing hope of leaving (unless you break down and comply) does funny things to the mind.

Let me ask you this:  Can somebody graduate the program without changing his/her beliefs on such things or are they kept in program until they "change their attitude".

If it's as I suspect, the latter, there could be no other result than "a changed attitude(soul)" if he finished the program.

I read a lot of what he wrote in wilderness- he and I were going to write a book but never got around to it.  I can assure you that he wasn't brainwashed.  He was really funny about going back the second time.  He settled right into it and was able to help other kids who came there "new".   He said every kid that arrived said, "This is a mistake.  I'll be going home in a couple of weeks."

Yup.  When they lose that hope... splurt.  out goes the brain(personality, mind, soul), in comes the mush.  It was nice of your kid to help the other kids out in that effort.  What did i say about hazing?  Something about kids becoming part of the system.

Before you slap me, that was not lashing out.  I am well aware if what i suspect was the case, he honestly thought he was helping kids out.  No harmful intent...  One should not judge him for that.

I have worked with a lot of therapists over the years- both for myself and my kids.  The two we worked with at 2N were the best I have ever encountered (my husband and son's opinion as well).

Well it doesn't look like he thought that when starting the program.  With which of these methods did they change his mind with?

[Charly]

The therapists spend two days a week in the field meeting with the kids individually and with the group.

We were not TOLD what to write.  The therapist helped us based on what he was doing in therapy and what he was saying the issues were.   We asked the therapist what we should say about certain topics based on where he was with his processing.

It was therapy. The things he worked on were individual to him and were appropriate.  

The kids were not told they were leaving because the transition camp was a neat part of the program and there was a  ceremony etc.  Besides, it wasn't planned way in advance.  
He had to agree to Carlbrook because if he didn't, he couldn't go there and we had to find another option.  He had to write a letter to Carlbrook, if he wanted to go there, explaining why he thought it was the right place for him.  We had sent him materials about it and he had been told about it.  He figured it was the best option and he agreed to it.  Once he got there, he decided he had been wrong.

I don't remember the wilderness levels and what you had to do. It was 3 1/2 years ago.  They were similar to the program in Shouting at the Sky.  It was a combination of  "hard" skills and therapeutic work.  They were called Earth, Water, Fire and Air or something like that.  My son wanted to focus on the hard skills and actually had to be taken off of some of them so he would focus on therapy.  He would carry other people's packs for them and carry all the water so the group could hike faster......

[Charly]

Our son's way of "helping" was to point out what percentage of kids got to go home and say, "Dude. You're going to a program!"

[69]

He had to agree to Carlbrook because if he didn't, he couldn't go there and we had to find another option. He had to write a letter to Carlbrook, if he wanted to go there, explaining why he thought it was the right place for him. We had sent him materials about it and he had been told about it. He figured it was the best option and he agreed to it. Once he got there, he decided he had been wrong.

I am curious, if he had refused, outright, or had been more "troubled" than he was, what would you have done? What were the other options you were considering?

[Charly]

Tri- we really hadn't looked at other options at that point once we chose Carlbrook. If Carlbrook had refused, we would have had to look at other places, I guess.  Carlbrook is one of the least restrictive programs. I would not have sent him to HLA or Cascade. He needed strong academics, so that limited our choices.

[Anne Bonney]

I can't believe after everything that's been said about Charley's son on this site that you think he would willingly engage in a discussion here.  It's strange that the alleged humiliation to kids that is so concerning to some of you on Fornits is quite similar to what when on here for months regarding Charley and her family.  Now you want the son to risk all of that being discussed again.  I can't blame him.

I'm not asking him to discuss what he "did to deserved to get placed there" or any of the really personal aspects of his story.  I'm asking for him to discuss why he thinks Carlbrook was helpful to him.  I imagine he would be treated very differently than his mother as he hasn't spewed the garbage at people that she has.

[Charly]

psy- He changed his mind about the therapist because he was a good therapist.  My son knows a good therapist when he sees one. The guy did not use persuasion and control.  He had some good ideas and great insight.  That's why my son wanted to go back there-he was the best therapist my son has ever worked with.  
During the second stint, the guy advised us at one point to bring him home because C-brook was dragging their feet on letting him come back there. The therapist said he had accomplished all he could and our s on was ready to leave and go back to school.  He asked us to come out there, take our son out of the field for a day and night and be with him and see what we thought.  We did that. C-brook then said he should come back there, which worked better for school, for one thing.  We had a good family session with the therapist at the base building (a nice building, by the way, not a trailer) and then left with our son.

[Charly]

Anne- I'll tell you what he told me and what I wrote to psy.    He does not agree with the group pressure and the "ratting" people out.  He thought some of the staff was nuts.  What worked for him was getting to know some kids on a level different from competitive prep school or athletics.  It helped to be able to read and write and have little distraction.  It helped to have a good therapist there.  It helped to figure out, with the help of some academic teachers, where he wanted to go with his next few years.  He did not buy into any of the therapy/programming, but did like his sessions with his particular counselor.  He also gained respect for some senior staff members- one is still there and one is not.  He realized that we (parents) were on his side and not The Enemy.  He felt he (and we) were misled about several aspects of the school.  However, he does think the principals truly believe they can help kids and he respects the business/school they have built from the ground up.

[Anne Bonney]

Anne- I talked to my son about all this last week.  I am a lawyer and I am good at being objective.

Just because you're an attorney doesn't mean you're objective....especially when it comes to your own family.  It's not a fault, it's human nature.


 

I have no interest in defending programs per se-  I just want to provide input here.

OK, but are we not permitted to question that "input" and discuss it?

 

I have never received any money (in fact, I think Carlbrook would have paid me to NOT tell anyone my son had been there) for a referral.  

Never said you did.

I am not putting my spin on anything.  I am holding back a little here because it is a public forum and I have been burned before.

You can't help it, it's human nature.

I feel that you are doing yourselves a disservice if you really want to reach parents.  You are wrong in saying that every aspect of every program is bad and abusive.  There are good parts to some programs.  

I feel that you are doing a disservice if you really want to help kids.  I think YOU are wrong.  I think the very nature and basis of these programs is destructive.

Perhaps the bad outweighs.  That is a legitimate belief.

Well, gee.  Thanks.:roll:

i am giving you factual information and the opinions of myself and my son.  Also, I have talked to perhaps  30 kids who have been to 2N.  No one had anything but praise for that particular program. These are kids who had different feelings about their next programs- some loved C-brook and some hated it (as well as non-Carlbrook programs).  ALL felt that they benefitted from Second Nature.

And when I first got out of Straight I would have sworn up and down that I deserved it, needed it and it saved my life.  

If you want to help parents and get rid of bad programs, you have to take a close look at what the good parts are and figure out how those tools can be used in a different setting.  I am trying to give you this information.  My son is an exception in many ways- I realize that.  He was not a typical teen and had some unique talents and issues.  

I want to help rid the world of ALL these mindrape mills.

I am not an adversary to you.  I'm really not.  It is very frustrating for me to post here, and I am wondering why I am doing it.  I much prefer the one on one dialogue which I have had with psy and others.  I feel that there is less room for misinterpretation that way.

Ok, doesn't really matter if you are or not.  We all have our different opinions.  You just seem to think that yours are fact.

Anne, if you want to use what I am saying to prove the point that every aspect of wilderness and TBS is bad, go for it.  I don't think that is your best "play" though.  

I'm not playing anything.  I'm just stating my opinions and experiences.

I am willing to be a resource and answer questions fairly and accurately.  I have NO need to look at anything through a filter.  My son is 20 years old and in college.  I don't have a horse in the race.

Yes you do.

[Anne Bonney]

Anne- I'll tell you what he told me and what I wrote to psy.  He does NOT think Carlbrook, per se, was helpful to him.  He does not agree with the group pressure and the "ratting" people out.  He thought some of the staff was nuts.  What worked for him was getting to know some kids on a level different from competitive prep school or athletics.  It helped to be able to read and write and have little distraction.  It helped to have a good therapist there.  It helped to figure out, with the help of some academic teachers, where he wanted to go with his next few years.  He did not buy into any of the therapy/programming, but did like his sessions with his particular counselor.  He also gained respect for some senior staff members- one is still there and one is not.  He realized that we (parents) were on his side and not The Enemy.  He felt he (and we) were misled about several aspects of the school.  However, he does think the principals truly believe they can help kids and he respects the business/school they have built from the ground up.

Ok, I hear what you're saying but it doesn't change how I feel.  I'd still like to discuss it with him.  If he's not willing, that's fine too.  I understand that, but I'm just not willing to take your word for it.  Sorry.  I appreciate and will abide by this truce, but I still feel the way I do.