Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Brat Camp
Typical Day at Sagewalk
AtomicAnt:
--- Quote ---On 2005-07-28 22:06:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Who cares how hard it was for the damn parents? thats as irrelevant as it could be, and its stupid to play victim over and over and over. Boo hoo you wasted your money and a piece of what should be the best time of your childs life.
The bottom line is I've still yet to see the programs as anything but coersion and using various stressors to make them easy to change, which is 'brainwashing' with politer terms.
Punishment doesnt make anyone a better person. Finding something positive out of a shitty experience is a good skill but it doesnt condone or justify a bad experience. This has been gone over and over many times. You dont rape people so they have 'emotional growth'. Besides, 'emotional growth' is having a BREAK DOWN in the minds of these programmies and wilderness psychos.
Its all about forcing them to have a break down, but call it a "break through", and disclose all their personal shit and open them up to be more vulnerable and more humiliated "or work through it" and then when theyre open to suggestion you do so... which fits BRAINWASHING TO A T.
Fuck, talk to anyone whose gotten out of a program and wasnt brainwashed by it. They just made up more shit to divuldge and work through to get out... and you have to because eventually you run out of shit to talk about and humiliate yourself with. Its bullshit, not therapy, and punishment is a waste of time at best. I still fail to see the efficacy of these programs and the point behind them.
You either come out with a damaged or brainwashed kid, or a kid who fought the program and (if you follow their rules) someone you kick out anyway! I mean sure, you learn lessons from this mistake and "grow" from it, but so do people who survive being raped or tortured or trauamtic experiences. That still doesnt mean its a good thing to do to someone, you can gorw and mature by other means. Not everyone survives and grows off of it, anyway, plenty of people are broken by it.
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
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"
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Just for the record. What approach would you take to reach the teenager who simply won't cooperate at all is 'out of control' with drugs, sex, et al?
This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2005-07-28 21:55:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
It is this no-choice choice bullshit that I cannot get past. You cannot oppose the program without destroying yourself. Thus there is no real choice.
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Me too. And it's not just about different strokes for different folks. It's that the freedom to walk away is probably the most commonly used spontanious behavior for avoiding serious conflict.
When people start walking off, you get the idea that you must be doing something wrong. Under these circumstances, the subjects are captive and dissent is punished. There's no limit to how far they'll push these kids either emotionally or physically because they have no social reality check on their own behavior. Out there, (or behind the closed door of some BM warehouse) they're gods. Before the program, I had heard many times that power corrupts. Within the program, I saw firsthand how that works.
--- Quote ---On2005-07-28 22:26:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?"
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First, understand that the entire market for the troubled parent industry is just a tiny fraction of the whole population. It's not asif this is a brand new concept that the market hasn't discovered yet. This has been going on for 35 years now as a formal treatment method. The market largely rejects it. So you might look to what the majority has been doing in the mean time.
For the most part, we do our level best to keep some order in our homes, anguish over how best to help and support our kids w/o making more trouble than what we're trying to address, and just know that it's not easy being a parent. No one ever said it would be.
Just look over the struggling teen website under parenting issues. After all the expense to the parent and risk and abuse to the kids, that's right were they seem to find themselves; right back at the beginning, only with a few more issues thrown into the mix.
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
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Nihilanthic:
Im just gonna tag-along with what ginger said because I really dont have anything very differnet to add to it...
You basically just do what you can, but let them grow up and make their own choices and their own mistakes. Programs that ultimately do no good and might very well do harm are hardly a "choice" when the option of simply doing nothing (to hurt, might I add) is very much present.
Maybe you do need to just do nothing. Maybe instead of punishing you should try just letting them go out and do it. I mean shit, if you just accept the fact that being a parent means dealing with shit and putting up with a lot, they'll probably come back around to you in time.
There is always the option of a REAL boarding school, or a relative, or a friend, if toughing it out isn't there. People got through this for centuries, and most people since the programs have been around dont need 'em, so why does the hypothetical program parent?
Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright
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Anonymous:
I haven't read it but the guy who wrote Wilderness Road was Campbell Loughmiller.
001010,
Are you watching this thread? You were at the Salesmanship Club. What was it like?
Anonymous:
Before "Brat Camp," I was only tangentially aware that these places and programs existed. After reading posts and articles, I'm horrified that these programs are basically unregulated, and that a network would essentially provide free advertising for a particular program. There is no independent commentary on what is happening to these children; the commentary is provided by the guy who runs Sagewalk!
While watching, I didn't understand how a licensed therapist could broadcast therapy sessions and not violate some ethical standard. However, it doesn't look to me like the therapist that is often shown on Brat Camp is licensed as a therapist -- she appears to have a degree in counseling from some college in Arizona. Am I correct?
Thanks to everyone who has posted useful links and information.
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