Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Brat Camp
Typical Day at Sagewalk
Anonymous:
--- Quote ---On 2005-07-26 17:37:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"This is a great thread despite tempers flaring. I like hearing both sides and now for my own two cents.
I went through a 'wilderness challenge' when I was fifteen. This was in 1976 and I guess the rules and perceptions were different.
Doug, we were not required to eat food we did not like. We were not forced to run 'fire drill' routines against the clock. We were allowed to cuss (which was cool since school and home forbade it). Drugs, cigarettes, sex, and weapons were forbidden. Some kids actually complained about not being allowed to smoke. No one took my three inch pocket knife away.
Instead of wasting time with this negative, spirit breaking stuff, we engaged in cool activities like trust falls, trust walks, making and crossing rope bridges, navigating obstacle courses where many obstacles required us to work as a team to get the whole team across. We went rock climbing and rapelling (sp?). It was fun. No body tried to escape; not even those who were court ordered to be there.
We did the same kind of therapy you descibe, but we had no 'impact letters.' Instead we made our own (list things you wish to change about yourself and what you can do to make that change). We laughed, cried, hugged, and had a great time and grew close.
And it worked just as well if not better than these, 'whip the kids into shape' nonsense activities.
One funny story is that at the beginning of the trip, I snuck two, one-pound cans of Dinty Moore beef stew into my pack. Later, when I got caught, a counselor said, 'If you can carry it, you can keep it.' I shared it with everyone (counselors, too) around a snowy campsite one night and was a hero.
I look back at the experience with fondness. That is how it should be.
I object to the treatment of the kids not because of specific abuses, but because of the lack of respect for the individual it shows. You don't teach people to be independent and responsible by riding them every minute, making them eat food, making them perform minor routines against the clock (and their will) and forcing them to agree to an ideology they just don't agree with. This only results in anger and resentment or situational adaptation. It doesn't work and the NIH did a years long study that concluded it doesn't work."
--- End quote ---
Well said!
Can you tell us the name of your program and also, post a link to the NIH study?
I think Outward Bound is a great program but they are highly selective of the kids they take (none by force, for example) and they are not punitive nor exploitive.
Deborah:
Doug,
I beg to differ with you. I saw on national TV a staff member standing over a kid making him eat burned oat mush that looked like crap. The kid was gagging. Staff told him that if he threw up he?d have to ?dig a new hole?. Whatever that means. The narrator calmly explained that they ?must eat 1800 calories per day?, justifying force.
You contradict yourself later by saying that they were forced to eat all they prepared, to avoid critters and waste. For future reference, a really good way to discard unwanted food is to dig a hole and bury it, then pee on it.
FYI, I wasn?t implying that they were attempting to deceive you into eating more. I saw the very real possibility and likelihood of a kid cooking way more than they could consume, due to ignorance, and then being forced to eat it.
As for the calories, you can calculate them yourself using the USDA calorie chart:
http://adam.about.com/care/weightloss/w ... chart.html
Yes, I noticed that all the food was hi-carb. How about some nuts and seeds?
It may not have been a problem for you but, all grain and beans expand in water. How did you choke down uncooked rice and lentils? And why would you? I?d imagine that they would be damn near impossible to digest.
Regarding the temperature. A lot of kids are from warmer climates. It can take years to acclimate to a different climate. Some, who make radical moves never fully acclimate. How whiny would you have been if they had sent you to the blazing desert in Utah or Arizona, hiking in 90-100* temperatures. Might?ve been a wee bit warmer than you are accustomed. Not surprising that the girls were the ones to complain.
And speaking of girls? and you may not know the answer, but perhaps there is a female amongst us that does. Where and how did they dispose of their used FH products? I mean, talk about attracting predators.
I can appreciate your comments regarding camaraderie. Both my sons were in programs 4 years apart (against my wishes) and their only fond members are of a few people they met there. Doesn?t excuse the abuse. Why are you searching for your comrades on the internet? Why don?t these programs allow the kids to exchange contact info?
The whole washing in the same cup you eat from is just not sanitary, and I have to wonder how many of the vomiting incidents were due to unsanitary conditions rather than bland food.
I feel certain the kids are carrying more weight than they should. Compare what you said with Utah Regs (not that the programs in Utah necessary comply):
Regs state that packs: shall not exceed 20 percent of the consumer's body weight. If the consumer is required to carry other items, the total of all weight carried shall not exceed 30% of the consumer's body weight.
Under Utah Regs your pack should not have weighed more than 23# and total weight of everything, including water and rocks, should not have exceeded 35#.
Sounds like you made the best of a bad situation. Good that you didn?t leave with a negative association- hating nature.
Anonymous:
"I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.
"It can take years to acclimate to a different climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--
And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl
News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN
Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days
Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)
These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???
Anonymous:
--- Quote ---On 2005-07-26 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.
"It can take years to acclimate to a different climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--
And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl
News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN
Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days
Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)
These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???
"
--- End quote ---
Jeez, looks like Deborah is a real thorn in your side Anon. That's good. Maybe you can try arguing facts instead of relying on personal attacks?
The question about FH, was a legitmate one. In fact, it was a damn good question.
Got an answer????
:silly:
AtomicAnt:
I don't think your tone is constructive.
I have read dozens of articles on this subject and consulted with friends and family. My sister has a PHD in adolecsent psycology, my wife is a board certified psychiatrist. My wife has worked in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs, in prisons, and with the homeless. She pointed out the success ratios these programs claim are insane. If they use follow-up at all, they use unreliable self surveys. A kid is not going to risk going back by telling the company that runs his program that he has fallen back into his old habits.
Both my wife and sister informed me about something called 'situational adaptation.' It is a problem in almost all rehabilition programs. It is basically similar to Stockholm Syndrome. The patient in the rehab program will genuinely change their psycology to reduce the negative stresses the programs place on them. They are not faking it, and so appear to be helped. but when the program is over, the adopted behavour doesn't stick. Thus coercive programs usually don't work. A person has to want to change. They cannot be forced.
I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but there are just too many bad stories out there to ignore.
To me it is simply unconscionable to place a child in a situation where they are isolated and in the hands of strangers. If abuse does occur, they have no recourse and no one will believe them. I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
The program I attended was called simply Wildnerness Challenge. I don't know much of the details because I never looked into it, but it was not a for profit affair. It was sponsored by the school district. The director was reputed to be a survivalist expert who had trekked to the N. Pole. The groups were chaperoned, yup, along with our guides/counselors we had chaperons. In my group, our chaperons included my eighth grade english teacher and the principal to the school where I attended sixth grade. I had adults I knew and trusted with me.
The program was offered through the high school. I don't know how all the kids were recruited. I was convinced to go by a friendly 'intervention' of kids and teachers I knew. They talked me into it. It was only after the program that I was informed by one of the kids that they had been instructed not to let me leave the room until I agreed. That stung a bit.
Of the eight kids in my group, three of them were my classmates. The program was essentially, community based. I remember how it made me feel good to know these people all cared about me.
Oh, I was just told to add the following:
These for profit programs don't find fault with the parents because they want their money. Therefore, they place all the blame on the kids. This allows the parents to feel less guilty by shipping the problem child away instead of dealing with him/her as a family. The child may change, but is returned to an unchanged family and any gains will be either reversed, or suppressed due to the child's new found fear. These repressed problems will come out with a vengeance once the child becomes an adult and moves out.
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