The Great Mystery of the Final Days

[Anonymous]

What exactly happened? There seems to be a mystery here that no one wants to resolve. Can someone please explain the story of "The Final Days" in detail. . .once and for all??

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, you'd probably have to get it from Art or Libby... & they ain't talkin.... :smile:

[Anonymous]

WELL. ONCE AGAIN I GUESS NO ONE HAS THE COURAGE TO ADDRESS THE GREAT MYSTERY OF THE FINAL DAYS. NOTICE YOU ALL TALK AND TALK BUT HAVE NOT REALLY VENTURED TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF THE FINAL DAYS.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-06-17 21:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"WELL. ONCE AGAIN I GUESS NO ONE HAS THE COURAGE TO ADDRESS THE GREAT MYSTERY OF THE FINAL DAYS. NOTICE YOU ALL TALK AND TALK BUT HAVE NOT REALLY VENTURED TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF THE FINAL DAYS."

Who really gives a s**t about the "FINAL DAYS"  :roll: Will 'THE TRUTH' finally set these angry, bitter, resentful, dysfunctional souls free?  I think not! Dorothy and her pals realized they didn't need the Wizard after all...the passion to change was in them all along...

You came through it or you didn't - GET OVER IT!!

[GregFL]

apparently the poster cares about the final days. Maybe this poster devoted a substantial portion of his life to the cult and would like to know more about how it ended. Or maybe he/she is just curious. I see no harm in that.


I don't think "get over it" is a very sensitive or thought provoking response, nor is insinuting someone is disfunctional because they aren't privy to the "final days" story.


I know of it but I am really not a first person teller and would just butcher the story up and get it wrong.

Basically Libby gathered a group of supporters and confronted Art and Shelly at his house over some "issues" and Art threw them out. After this the remaining lifers split down "pro libby" or "pro Art" factions.

I would really rather someone who was there or closer to the situation tell it please.....

[Stripe]

Who really gives a s**t about the "FINAL DAYS"  :roll: Will 'THE TRUTH' finally set these angry, bitter, resentful, dysfunctional souls free?  I think not! Dorothy and her pals realized they didn't need the Wizard after all...the passion to change was in them all along...



You came through it or you didn't - GET OVER IT!!



"

I could live to regret this, but I gotta respond.

Frankly, I think insensitive holes like you with your "get over comments" are - well, you must be under the spell of the evil witch coven of Mel and Betty Sembler.  That's Betty's response to the children of Straight who are so damamged by that program - which was a rip-off of the seed.  

Get over it?  Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and see what's happening around you?  Folks need to get over it?  To be blunt about it, and based solely on your response, you need to wake the fuck up.

The silence of the old guard, I suspect, comes from one of two places:

It's yet another control game with puppet-speakers doing the dirty work of creating shame and doubt in those who would ask questions and demand answers.  

OR

The old guard does not possess the moral fortitude and personal intergrity necessary to step up to plate and accept responsiblity for the good and the bad that came from their actions.

Gee, Anon, if you are such a seed buff and supporter, how come the rule about making amends doesn't apply in this case?

The way I see it, your karma runs over your dogma.... [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-19 19:17 ]

[Antigen]

I think what everybody wants to know is the what. About what did Libby confront Art? What's the dish? Can't you guess? Does it matter? Think Art maybe fell to human frailty and stated getting flakey in his old age? Maybe that didn't fit w/ his godlike status among followers? And that caused friction? Maybe Libby, for all her faults, actually internalized some of the double entendre shit about honesty and integrity and just didn't want to lie anymore to support the mythology? Maybe she hit middle age and found it was time to quit playing Barbies and play horses?

I doubt we'll ever get much more detail. I'm sure it's all very painful and confusing to those involved. But it's still a valid question. After all, the principle characters involved certainly never had any respect for our privacy. Two way street, friends. We're just returing the favor; trying to keep you straight.  :rofl:

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/sittbull.html' target='_new'>Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877

[80's Guy]

The silence of the old guard, I suspect, comes from one of two places:



It's yet another control game with puppet-speakers doing the dirty work of creating shame and doubt in those who would ask questions and demand answers.  



OR



The old guard does not possess the moral fortitude and personal intergrity necessary to step up to plate and accept responsiblity for the good and the bad that came from their actions.



Gee, Anon, if you are such a seed buff and supporter, how come the rule about making amends doesn't apply in this case?
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-19 19:17 ]"

[80's Guy]

I doubt we'll ever get much more detail. I'm sure it's all very painful and confusing to those involved. But it's still a valid question. After all, the principal characters involved certainly never had any respect for our privacy. Two way street, friends. We're just returing the favor; trying to keep you straight

I could not agreee more with Antigen's  and Stripe's quotes above. The saddest part of the story is that the principal parties have decided to live a lie rather than truly humble themselves as all of us had to plenty of times in their presence. When it comes to their own "sh-t" it is much too sacred for them to ask for forgiveness or, God forbid, forgive others. Stripe is right on the money: their silence of never wanting to speak the truth to those in the lower ranks, such as myself, caused me to lose almost all of a lifetime of friendships. . ."These are the greatest friends you will ever have or can ever ask for."  Remember that quote? The principal parties really did not care about the bonds that they themselves had helped me to create for years. When it came time to saving face as opposed to admitting and helping all to continue their lives and cultivated friendships, they promoted cutting ties and loyalties with all those opposed. Wow, thanks for at least having the decency to let me know you were going to pull the rug under me after 20 years and that now you expect me to cut ties with the very friends you for so many years let me know you had so much respect for and as a matter of fact, I should look up to these friends of mine and respect them because they are, after all, better, greater, and wiser souls than me. The principal parties sure waved the flag for many people, making sure they were held up as the "examples" of stregth, fortitude, courage, success, and riches, but when it came time to tear them down, boy people started coming down those pedestals on a high speed elevator.  

But it's O.K. From now on, I'd rather go at it alone or with friends that are much more comfortable showing me real feelings, not just a programmed smile that is criticizing and questioning my every move in relation to how I feel about THEM. [ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-06-20 06:00 ]

[cleveland]

Right on, '80s guy!

[GregFL]

Why don't one of you people that really know the story in detail lay it out here once and for all. You can do it anonymously.

 I think it is only fair to the people who were locked up and forced to worship these people, that they get to find out how this dark little fairy tale ended.

[Anonymous]

Greg would you like to give us the dirt on your whole entire family.  I think not.  Some things are left better unsaid.  It involves illness and greed all the typical ingredients found in most all american families.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-06-20 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Greg would you like to give us the dirt on your whole entire family.  I think not.  Some things are left better unsaid.  It involves illness and greed all the typical ingredients found in most all american families.  "

Anon,

If you have read any of the subject matters on this forum you would see where every person who posts with a screen name has put their "dirt" out there.  Your cynicism is really misplaced.  

When it comes to atoning for the lives destroyed, really, the position should be that there are NOT ENOUGH words to express the sorrow, regret and remorse the programmers should feel for what they did, not that such statements remain better unsaid. Read the 80's guy post again and tell me you don't think he is entitled to an explanation.

I think it's tragically ironic that the programmers who demanded honesty are thoroughly incapable of demonstrating such traits in the REAL world. I guess for them this refusal to acknowledge what happend (from the 1971 inception to closing) is just another character ?de?fault that Anon would like to attribute to a dysfunctional family.

Maybe we give them far too much credit for character traits they are simply incapable of possessing or understanding.  Maybe we expect too much because our journeys have taught us lessons about this past that the programers could never understand.  When life gets  difficult, it is much easier to leave the painful things unsaid and unacknowledged.  But easy does not equate with right.  Hey! That sure is one big-ass white elephant in the room, don't you think?

The programmers, be they ill or greedy or in any other state, still owe an explanation to every person whose life they touched and destroyed - no matter how painful, difficult or embarrassing it might be for them. My perception of the programmers is that they think they are above all law, both natural and enacted.  This lawlessness just reinforces my very, very low opinions of them.  

Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Edition
Natural Law: ...a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word, his whole mental, moral and physical constitution.

Putting that into seed-talk language that the programmers will understand:  Do the right thing and the right thing will happen.

Most sincerely,

Stripe

[Antigen]

Well I can't speak for Greg, but I personally didn't enjoy it one bit when Art decided to make hay out of my family's personal business. Didn't enjoy seeing my sister stand up before a crowd at open meeting and describe herself as the most horrible kind of girl. Didn't like seeing my brother cry and similarly confess. Didn't enjoy being constantly questioned, surveiled and accused as I tried to dodge that bullet growing up.

Yeah, I see your point. None of that is very nice to experience. Funny how the elites are so terribly sensitive about their own dirty laundry, huh?

If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--

[GregFL]

I seem to remember being forced to stand up in front of thousands (yes, when I was there sometimes up to 700 kids, both their parents, prospective parents, grandparents, "interested parties" and the press)  and confess my darkest secrets. I had to do this or continue my suffering.  I remember specifically Art the weasel asking direct questions of the group..how many did this, how many stole, how many lied, cheated..etc... as my hand sheapishly went up and my parents and others that knew me eyes drilled right thru me. I remember feeling sexually humiliated and asked to tell stories about my sexuality or lack thereof in "boys rap" in front of my entire group of high school people.

Now I am supposed to feel sorry for these tyrannical dipshits because they had a falling out and could not continue the facade?

My families secrets have already been laid bare "anon", and I continue to give of myself in hopes that others can heal from this mess and still others may have the heart not to sentence their children to a lifetime of self loathing and questioning.

Absolutely I think someone should step up to the plate here. I have heard tthe story but cannot tell it with any degree of accuracy. Someone should, and they should now, if only to correct a wrong done to 90s guy and the others that dedicated their entire young adult and middle years to a lie unwittingly.