Author Topic: What Are You Looking At?  (Read 4866 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164661
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2011, 09:56:48 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:29:37 PM by Anonymous »

Offline DannyB II

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3273
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2011, 10:09:17 PM »
Well the least you could do Wayne is show her your cunt...lol. Your avatar.
Anyway, let's not dissolve into pettiness. This conversation was going somewhere (for me anyway).
Ajax everyone doesn't have to be exactly where you are at in knowledge to have something to say.
Why can't we share information with diplomacy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2011, 10:14:38 PM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
See, I don't know how experimental it was.  It had its funding from the government, yes, but can you tell me what the hypothesis was?  What were the controls on the experiment that differentiated it from the previous experiment/programs like Synanon.  See, I'm missing something.  How does a charlatan like Art Baker become privy to the experimental data and funding that is accessible to the military-scientific community?  Art Baker had no prior scientific experience and had no prior military experience.  The only way I can feasibly imagine that he got access to the funding was that he sold to the stringholders of the purse that his program worked, lifting directly the techniques used in Paradise House and mishmashing them a bit to come up with something that would appear experimental, but truly was nothing more than charlatanry - nothing different than what we see with attachment therapy.  And if you sell it well enough to the stringholder, you can get a lot of fuzzy deals that ensure that the operation can work in secrecy.

Dr. Davidson's Elan is a bit different.  Ricci was a charlatan, but we don't know much about Dr. Davidson.
Ummm... Maybe this is a minor point, but Art Barker *did* serve in World War II. How efficaciously is another story. I seem to remember that he might have gone AWOL at one point, but I may well be remembering the story incorrectly.

If he *did* go AWOL at some point, however, there's the possibility that he may have been "thrown in the brig" for that, and if so, may have been exposed to the form of rehabilitative "group therapy" that the DOD was attempting to install and promulgate via its military prisons in the mid 1940s, namely Guided Group Interaction. (This paragraph here is strictly speculation on my part with regard to Barker's personal history; I cannot stress that enough.)

Nevertheless, whether or not Barker went through the above noted experience, the fact remains that GGI was mentioned as one of the methodologies that Barker used to formulate the magical voodoo that was put into practice at the Seed.

As to how someone like Barker could be given such reins? For that you'll need to look into local political history in Florida in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I'm not from Florida, so there's obviously a lot I don't know, but I rather suspect that a hell of a lot of this had to do with attempts to close down places like Marianna and the man Florida recruited to do that job. That would be Oliver Keller.

Keller's vision was to do away with the large scale prison-like institutions rife with nightmarish physical brutality like Marianna, and install lots of smaller, community-based programs. I imagine there was ample room, perhaps also ample support, for local small scale business opportunities in this arena.

The idea was to do away with the physical coercion, and instead, to resort to the "kinder, gentler" forms of psychological persuasion exemplified by former experiments like GGI originator Lloyd McCorkle's Highfields RTC in New Jersey (1950) and Cottage 6 in metro NYC (shortly after Highfields; PIs escape me at the moment). [Fwiw, note that these two experiments predate Synanon by quite a bit.]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- -------------- --------------

Offline DannyB II

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3273
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2011, 10:44:23 PM »
Thanks Ursus for bringing the conversation back to intriguing insights.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2011, 10:48:30 PM »
Quote from: "ajax13"
Nobody likes a tourist.
I can really only speak for myself on this, but I tend to believe that, at one point or another, earlier in our personal histories with this industry, ALL of us have been, more or less, "tourists" of a sort in this game...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- -------------- --------------

Offline Xelebes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 348
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2011, 11:09:00 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Xelebes"
See, I don't know how experimental it was.  It had its funding from the government, yes, but can you tell me what the hypothesis was?  What were the controls on the experiment that differentiated it from the previous experiment/programs like Synanon.  See, I'm missing something.  How does a charlatan like Art Baker become privy to the experimental data and funding that is accessible to the military-scientific community?  Art Baker had no prior scientific experience and had no prior military experience.  The only way I can feasibly imagine that he got access to the funding was that he sold to the stringholders of the purse that his program worked, lifting directly the techniques used in Paradise House and mishmashing them a bit to come up with something that would appear experimental, but truly was nothing more than charlatanry - nothing different than what we see with attachment therapy.  And if you sell it well enough to the stringholder, you can get a lot of fuzzy deals that ensure that the operation can work in secrecy.

Dr. Davidson's Elan is a bit different.  Ricci was a charlatan, but we don't know much about Dr. Davidson.
Ummm... Maybe this is a minor point, but Art Barker *did* serve in World War II. How efficaciously is another story. I seem to remember that he might have gone AWOL at one point, but I may well be remembering the story incorrectly.

Hm, most biographies I've read on here and elsewhere state that he never served in the army, that he bragged about serving in the army but never actually served.  Got a good source?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Xelebes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 348
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2011, 11:09:48 PM »
By good, I mean better than what I have read only.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164661
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2011, 11:15:09 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:29:05 PM by Anonymous »

Offline ajax13

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2011, 11:32:14 PM »
Right then, case closed.  B-mod experiments conducted on behalf of US intelligence ended in the mid-sixties.  Neither the Seed, nor Straight were experimental.  Art Barker didn't serve in the US military, and the techniques used in the Seed and it's offspring were no different than Attachment Therapy, but they were not the same.  I feel smarter from having had the opportunity to take in all the information provided by commenters in this thread.  Truly, we are all blessed in having the opportunity to share in this knowledge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Xelebes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 348
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2011, 11:33:39 PM »
Do you understand what charlatanry is?  Or what being a charlatan means?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164661
  • Karma: +2/-1
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2011, 11:47:02 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:33:39 PM by Anonymous »

Offline ajax13

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1599
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2011, 11:56:25 PM »
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
All I said is that I read the government said MKUltra ended in the 60s, I didn't say it did. And, I'm more than happy to be taught something, but not the way you did it. It's not your lesson I have a problem with, it's your presentation
No, Xelebes said that experimentation ended in sixties.  He also said that the Seed was not experimental, he said that Senator Ervin demanded proof that the Seed was experimental, that Art Barker did not have a military record, and that AARC came from KHK.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2011, 12:26:01 AM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Xelebes"
How does a charlatan like Art Baker become privy to the experimental data and funding that is accessible to the military-scientific community?  Art Baker had no prior scientific experience and had no prior military experience.
Ummm... Maybe this is a minor point, but Art Barker *did* serve in World War II. How efficaciously is another story. I seem to remember that he might have gone AWOL at one point, but I may well be remembering the story incorrectly.
Hm, most biographies I've read on here and elsewhere state that he never served in the army, that he bragged about serving in the army but never actually served.  Got a good source?
Well... here are some excerpts from a newspaper article... It could be the case that he just bragged to the reporter, eh? Some better proof might be an actual copy of his military records (this might be a good job for someone skilled in FOIA requests).

From the article "Art Barker: The Seed's Chief Sows A Mixed Crop of People Reactions" (by Eleanor Randolph; December 16, 1973; St. Petersburg Times):


    ART BARKER was born 49 years ago in a rough section of Brooklyn. As Barker tells it, with the flair of a man who has been on stage, his father was an alcoholic and his first vacation from selling razor blades and needles was when he joined the U.S. Army in 1942.

    Police reports on Barker from those early years show that when he was 16, he was arrested for burglary and "being a wayward minor." Those charges were dismissed. Two years later he was charged with assault and robbery and those charges also were dismissed as young Art Barker enlisted in the U.S. Army a few days later.

    Early in his Army career, Barker went AWOL, but the war had started by then, and Barker was beginning to find something that he could do well. He could fight.

    As a tail gunner with the Army Air Corps that later became the U.S. Air Force, Barker received an Air Medal with silver leaf cluster, a Good Conduct Medal, a Purple Heart, and a Presidential Unit Citation.

    BARKER LEFT active duty in 1948 and told one reporter later that he took with him more than a box of medals. Like many young men after those war years, he had a drinking problem...[/list][/size]
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    -------------- -------------- --------------

    Offline Xelebes

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 348
    • Karma: +0/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: What Are You Looking At?
    « Reply #43 on: December 13, 2011, 01:09:55 AM »
    Quote from: "ajax13"
    Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
    All I said is that I read the government said MKUltra ended in the 60s, I didn't say it did. And, I'm more than happy to be taught something, but not the way you did it. It's not your lesson I have a problem with, it's your presentation
    No, Xelebes said that experimentation ended in sixties.  He also said that the Seed was not experimental, he said that Senator Ervin demanded proof that the Seed was experimental, that Art Barker did not have a military record, and that AARC came from KHK.

    If you have sources you can provide, then I would gladly entertain it.  I'm reading what is readily available here and elsewhere I can get information.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline ajax13

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 1599
    • Karma: +3/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: What Are You Looking At?
    « Reply #44 on: December 13, 2011, 10:22:06 AM »
    Quote from: "Xelebes"
    If you have sources you can provide, then I would gladly entertain it.  I'm reading what is readily available here and elsewhere I can get information.

    There is no evidence to support what you said about Sam Ervin demanding proof of the Seed's experimental nature.  Either you misread something, or you made that up.  There is scarce evidence about Barker's military background, yet what evidence there is indicates that he has a military record.  It is an indisputable fact that AARC was established as Kids of the Canadian West.  The documentary posted as the "raison d'etre" of this thread indicates that CIA was still involved in mind control experiments, and Jonestown was an example of this, and yet you assert that this type of experiment ended in the mid-sixties.  If you post assertions with no evidence to back them up, and in spite of evidence that refutes them, I am left wondering what it is that you are trying to do.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    "AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

    "...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?