Author Topic: What Are You Looking At?  (Read 4854 times)

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Offline DannyB II

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2011, 09:32:49 PM »
X, I believe there is a bit more Machiavellian here then Charlatanry  ....LOL!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2011, 10:30:36 PM »
I'm not saying that folks were not more than willing to not only take the bait but avidly willing to fund the programs.  I just have difficulty reconciling the cynical acts of Art Baker with experimentation.  To me, there was no hypothesis, no control variables, no data collected and no peer review.  

If there was a hypothesis, there would be something considerably more different than a mere shift in dialect.  A hallmark of such would be out right weirdness, instead of just a harsher regimen.

If there were control variables, then it would not be assembled in such a makeshift manner.  Mattresses in an abandoned hangar?  Well, maybe.  But what about the actual programme?

What was the data collected?  How was the data collected?  Was somebody walking around with a clipboard?  Or did Art solely rely on parent-volunteers to do the data collection?

What was the peer review?  Were there psychiatrists who came in and observed and gave their thumbs up?  If so, how often did this happen?  How did they express their thumbs up?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:28:28 PM by Anonymous »

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2011, 10:37:45 PM »
Maybe all he had to show them was that the kids were being kept from escaping.  How frightening would that be?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2011, 10:39:30 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:28:12 PM by Anonymous »

Offline none-ya

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2011, 10:43:31 PM »
I escaped (ran away) from the seed. I wonder how long he billed the government for my stay after I was gone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
??~@

Offline DannyB II

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2011, 11:33:58 PM »
When I said that things were a more Machiavellian here I meant it. Barker pulled off the biggest ruse ever. He honestly got the gov't to believe he could help children. I don't believe it was any more complicated then that.
Bare with me as I go off on a tangent. As of 1968-1972 Vietnam military personnel  had more junkies per-capita then most cities I would think. This was right in the faces of most congressmen and senators, shit even Nixon called it a disgrace of sorts. Didn't Nixon have a bill or plan in place to deal with the drug problem home and abroad ("Golden Triangle" which the CIA ran for awhile).  
So money was there to fix the problem for "DRUG ADDICTS". Problem was, "what if you were not a drug addict". I don't think they thought that far ahead, so why not swipe a broad brush across the entire TTI canvas.
Barker wasn't going to complain.
Another thought (tangent). I asked myself countless times why was the military always referred to in these discussions we have and it came to me because it is a microcosm that they can see and study and can also have a illusion of control over. The military refused to acknowledge its drug problem in Vietnam so why not throw money at it when these vets get back stateside. Better yet why not go further and deal with the drug problem stateside too.
In the movie Independence Day you saw Tom Cruise and Willem Dafoe in Mexico at a resort. It was a retreat for vets with a drug and alcohol problem.    
I know that Synanon was already operating with much help from AA from the onset. It is no coincidence that the 12 steps were integrated into so many T/C's. It gave the program a behavioral structure for their residents to work at. I am not saying that the steps are successful or not. I am just pointing out that many found this easier then thinking up their own methods.
Just thinking...
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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2011, 11:56:01 PM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
The experiments may have stopped in the mid 60s, but the programs started popping up then.  I think they were done experimenting by then and were just barging ahead with it, if that makes sense.

No.  Page 173 of the PDF, or 169 of the actual report.

http://www.neurosoup.com/mkultra/mkultra_hearings.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2011, 12:04:44 AM »
MKSEARCH "biological, chemical or radioactive material systems and techniques"

Do you know what is meant by that?
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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2011, 12:47:37 AM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
MKSEARCH "biological, chemical or radioactive material systems and techniques"

Do you know what is meant by that?

Does it have something to do with "producing predictable human behavioral and/or physiological changes in support of highly sensitive operational requirements.  You know, like say mind control or behavior modification?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2011, 12:55:38 AM »
No.  That might mean aversives ala Judge Rotenburg, but it does not mean the normal psychological experiments were being conducted.  It means a shift towards psychiatry and more experimental things (maybe one of the reasons why Scientology is so against psychiatry.)  What we know as behaviour modification, or brainwashing, is no longer being pursued under those criteria.

Also, Kids Helping Kids was an offshoot of Straight, either as a sister program of Kids of Bergen County and the sort, or an offshoot of Kids of _____.  So I kindly ask you to knock it off this fool's crusade.  The programs are hard to keep track of.
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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2011, 01:02:32 AM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
No.  That might mean aversives ala Judge Rotenburg, but it does not mean the normal psychological experiments were being conducted.  It means a shift towards psychiatry and more experimental things (maybe one of the reasons why Scientology is so against psychiatry.)  What we know as behaviour modification, or brainwashing, is no longer being pursued under those criteria.

Also, Kids Helping Kids was an offshoot of Straight, either as a sister program of Kids of Bergen County and the sort, or an offshoot of Kids of _____.  So I kindly ask you to knock it off this fool's crusade.  The programs are hard to keep track of.

The programs are not hard to keep track of.  Kids of Bergen County/New Jersey/Salt Lake are one stream.  KHK/Pathways is another.  Which normal psychological experiments are you referring to?  MKSearch was "the continuation of the MKUltra program".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2011, 01:05:03 AM »
Quote from: "ajax13"
Quote from: "Xelebes"
No.  That might mean aversives ala Judge Rotenburg, but it does not mean the normal psychological experiments were being conducted.  It means a shift towards psychiatry and more experimental things (maybe one of the reasons why Scientology is so against psychiatry.)  What we know as behaviour modification, or brainwashing, is no longer being pursued under those criteria.

Also, Kids Helping Kids was an offshoot of Straight, either as a sister program of Kids of Bergen County and the sort, or an offshoot of Kids of _____.  So I kindly ask you to knock it off this fool's crusade.  The programs are hard to keep track of.

The programs are not hard to keep track of.  Kids of Bergen County/New Jersey/

Um, yes they are.  Not only is there Straight, but there is WWASP, Hyde Schools, CEDU, Synanon, AEG as well as the ones not derived from Synanon like the IFB schools.
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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2011, 01:09:24 AM »
Since I am familiar with the Seed/Straight/Kids stream, I do not find it confusing.  You on the other hand, are not familiar with this subject, and yet you are making statements about the subject, rather than asking questions about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

"...based on an understanding that addiction is a chronic relapsing disease that makes people more vulnerable to overdose after they've been in treatment."  Zontar?

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2011, 01:24:19 AM »
Quote from: "ajax13"
Since I am familiar with the Seed/Straight/Kids stream, I do not find it confusing.  You on the other hand, are not familiar with this subject, and yet you are making statements about the subject, rather than asking questions about it.

That's great.  The research I'm trying to do is figure out where the experiments began and when they forked off.  I'm also leading my research into the Canadian Residential and the American Indian schools and how did they factor in the development.  I can say with a couple interviews I've had with the natives, the conditions of the schools was (may have been) not as egregious in the 70s as they were being wound down as they were in the period 1930-1965.

Synanon's experiment - the demonstration of efficacy.  That's all it had to do.  Psychiatrists and psychologists walked in, offered tips and hints, leading Dederich to refine the "Game."  That was the experimentation as far as it went.  That's all it had to do.  The Seed didn't even have that - although I think DuPont did visit and did give his grace, or at least jumped in as a consultant with Straight.  I don't know how much advice was given but from what I can discern of the financial documents, it was a skinflint operation that may have padded the wallets of Baker somewhat, unlike what Sembler, Newton and Vause could do.  This fact might suggest that it was an experiment, but I find it an unsatisfactory hypothesis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »