Does anyone think AA is a cult?

[Anonymous]

Well, Cayo, Im sorry you feel that way. I suppose since you are so determined to see the evil in it and the people in it as evil, then there is no point going on about it. And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.
Amanda

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-18 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be. Like Ive said AA is different all over the country. Not all AA people are intolerant judgemental jerks. Soem uinderstand that the Big book is not all its cracked up to be and adjust AA to meet their needs. NOt all of it is crap. Just the stuff that sys it is the only way. It is a way, yes, but as with anything in life, what works for one person most likely wony work for another.

Amanda"

Amanda, I'm not saying that all AA people are bad, not by a long shot.  I AM saying that AA ITSELF is pure religious dogma that serves no real purpose other than to churn out more and more converts....IN MY OPINION.

I appreciate what you've posted and no, my response you're speaking of was not intended towards you.  I do think that it may serve you well to try and find some other circles to travel in.  I'm not saying you should stop seeing your AA buds, but why limit yourself?  You seem like a relatively intelligent, kind spirited girl.  There is so much more out there and to see people living in a world that hasn't been shaped and molded by dogma can be quite enlightening.  AA people aren't the only ones who can understand what you're going through and someone without all that baggage may just offer you a perspective you hadn't thought of before.

Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[GregFL]

On 2005-05-18 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be.

WRONG!

I never said that.  Yes, this is a religion thread!!!!

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-18 09:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well, Cayo, Im sorry you feel that way. I suppose since you are so determined to see the evil in it and the people in it as evil, then there is no point going on about it. And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.

Amanda"

Of course I'm not saying that AA is worse than the programs.  Don't be silly.  I do agree with FKA's assessment though wholeheartedly...

Posted: 2005-05-17 17:10:00  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I feel that 12-step programs were a continuation of the damaging beliefs that i was taught at the Re-education Gulag to which I was sent. They wasted five years of my life. There is no one to be mad at about this except myself, I guess. Sure it wasn't as extreme as Straight, but the confounding beliefs were all there, what a bad person everyone was, inherently "full of shit". People were always being accused, although often in a roundabout way, of "sitting in their shit", "blaming", or "self-pity". To people in real pain, who might well have been drinking and/or going to meetings in order to have some relief from the pain of abusive relationships past and present, painful life situations and so on, this is very definitely extremely abusive.
 

That may give me a slightly more vehement objection to AA, but not any less valid.

Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

[Anonymous]

Cayo,
thanks fo the kindness. Actually the funny thing is, either my friends are in AA or they are pot heads. And they are all really cool people. I like all kinds of different people and am not opposed to meeting people not in AA. It just happens that the friends that have stuck by me and give the best advice and dont flake out on me and show up when I need them are in AA. My pot head buddies and I have fun too and get along great. But they flake on me alot and when I have a problem, the main response is "sorry dude. that sucks." Thats nice and all, but sometimes I need more than that. I am going back to school this next semester and hopefully will meet soem likeminded people. I just mostly have a hard time meeting those poeople. Like for instance, I like to go to shows and concerts. I like hippie music and also tool. I like violent movies sometimes, but Im opposed to guns. Im pretty liberal in my thinking, but still uphold certain values, like not cursing around kids or being negative around kids. I believe smoking pot is ok, but not around kids. See, most the people I meet have like mindedness to me, but dont have the same values as me and that makes it hard. Sorry to ramble, Ive just found that the AA friends I have respect my values and will, for instance, not cuss around my child. They may slip up, but are quick to apologize and correct themselves. My other buddies will try, but most of them just dont care and do it anyway.
Amanda

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-18 09:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

And AA is no where near as bad as a program. Come now. Hope you can at least see that. I just wish you could meet some of the openminded people I know in AA, and perhaps you might change your perspective. But alas, that wont happen, so I suppose theres no need to argue.
Amanda

Well here, I've gott stick up for my bud. For one, she just described her longstanding friendship w/ a man who became one of those tolerant, open minded AA adherents. I think we all know that those people exist. But you don't hear from them much (cause they're anonymous and not evangelical!)

But you just don't know the hell that some of us have been through w/ militant steppers in our families.

If you believed as RN does and you had a young relative who refused AA, what would you do? Would you try to force them into a program if they were a minor? Would you seek to remove their children if they had any? After all, you're convinced that they're a danger to themselves and others by virtue of their alcoholism and denial of it.

Militant steppers can become as dangerous as militant Baptists or militant Islamists or any other militants. Worse still, when a significant number of legislators and non elected policy makers and enforcers are militant steppers, they wind up making some horrible laws and policies. It's not hard to find the horror stories, either. There's a guy currently suing and Orlando hospital and the sheriffs' dept for strapping him down and hitting him up a couple of times w/ a stun gun in order to coerce a urin sample. Plenty of people have had their kids taken into foster care to force program attendance. Once they've got a sponsor, that sponsor has the power to give or to withold the certification that they need to prevent permanent loss of custody and adoption. Or, even w/o kids, they can call the PO and have the person arrested if they're non-compliant.

That's where I have a major problem w/ stepcraft. I'm fine w/ voluntary involvement and belief. I don't accept the dogma and, if you ask me, I'll tell you why and we can discuss it. But I'm not advocating for outlawing AA meetings or anything. To each his own and more power to ya! I draw the line at coercion; whether public or private.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.



---Richard Nixon

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Cayo Hueso]

I hope you go back and read through some of these links.  They really are very informative.

 http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =10#103189


Start with this one.. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... a_cult.htm

Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce

[GregFL]

It is a big world Amanda that consists of much more than just Potheads and AA devotees.


Good luck expanding your horizons.

[Cayo Hueso]

Amanda, seriously...broaden your horizons a little.  I don't mean that in any disrespectful way at all.  It just seems that you're in an 'either/or' situation with your friends.  Black or white.  There are people out there who don't smoke or drink but are not in any way involved with AA.  There are also plenty out there who DO smoke or drink that are NOT the way you've described your stoner buds.  The black/white issue is another one that, IMO, directly relates to AA.  In there it really is either black or white and if you've really been indoctrinated in the stepcraft culture it kind of seeps into other aspects of your life.  At least that's been my experience with it.  

Zany fun. It was a first - even Ben Franklin never arranged for something like this, and he was full of himself.

http://media.orkut.com/writers/0009.html' target='_new'>John Gorenfeld

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-18 09:29:00, Antigen wrote:


But you just don't know the hell that some of us have been through w/ militant steppers in our families.
<

Amen to that!! :nworthy:  :nworthy:

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0136374069/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Andrew Tannenbaum

[Anonymous]

Ginger,
I think I can understand the militant stepper thing more than you realize.

My family is full of militant religious zealots. My Stepmom and Dad and both militant presbyterians and feel that anyone not in their church is wrong and not worthy of them. We kids (except my brother George and Matt) can see the hypocracy and never fell for it for long. So I understand what its like. For sure.

If I knew someone in need of help, I would do the best I could, but woudl never force anyone to do anything. Now if it were my own child, then might be different. I woudl try anyway, to get her as much help as needed. Therapy, AA is she wanted to try it, and whatever else seemed to work for her. But even AA says if you dotn want to be there, then it wont work, so trying ot force someone to go is not going to be effective.

Now, my Mom can tell oyu how hard it is to grow up with an alcoholic as a parent. My husband can too. It screws that child up. So taking the children away might not be so bad. Sometimes, especially if you are getting beat or verbally abused by an alcoholic parent, taking that parent away to get help may not be so bad. My husband was forced to go to drug therapy when he got a DUID. He didnt agree wiht any of it. Didnt care ofr meetings. But he went to get it over with and found the therapy part somewhat helpful. And he learned alot about what drinking too much can do to your body. And how drunk driving affects us all, in terms of the cost of hospitals, court stuff, ect. It was intersting for him. SO it wasnt so bad. I agree though that mostly if a person does not want to get sober, AA or anything else really wont help.
Amanda

[Anonymous]

I realize that Cayo. And trust me, I have been open to meeting new people. I just havnt found people that fit my style. Most of the time, it just has to do with the fact that if I feel uncomfortable around a person, I try to shut it off before it gets further along. And negative people, wether in AA, pot head, whatever, I just dotn feel comfortable around. So since many people have negative self defeatign attitudes, its hard to find people I can be really good buddies with. I have fairly high standards for my friends. I have few really great friends. I have alot of aquaintence like friends. But I am ok with that for the most part. Because the really good friends I have you wouldnt know they were in AA if you met them. They dont talk about it. All you would think is they are sober cool people.

And Greg, I am always open to new people. But I simply cannot pretend to like someone if I dont. I dont care if they fit into a category or not. It just happens that alot of my friends are either pot heads or AA people. Some are neither. I just happen to get along more with them. And I feel thats ok. When I meet someone who isnt in either of those categories and I get along great with them, i will be ok wiht that too.

Amanda

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-18 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I realize that Cayo. And trust me, I have been open to meeting new people. I just havnt found people that fit my style.

Keep trying, you will!  Good luck in school!  I'm envious, that's one of the things that I really feel cheated out of in regards to the program I was in.  Have a wonderful time, learn lots, meet some new people, enjoy your life adn, as a friend is fond of saying...have lots of good fun!! :wave:  :tup:

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-18 09:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger,

I think I can understand the militant stepper thing more than you realize.

A-Men to that! LOL. Militant Presbys? You mean like Ruesses Rushdoony(sp?) followers? My little Presby church had a run in w/ some of those. My sister wound up eloping w/ a much older deacon who was into that. That's how I remember the name; he gave me a kitten and I named it Ruesses. Coolest cat I ever had. He was taken away from his mother too soon. Had to bottle feed him and raised him w/ a puppy. So he acted like a dog. Never did learn to properly clean himself, so always had skin probs. But great personality!

If I knew someone in need of help, I

No, I don't think you would lose your grip in the way I described. I'm talking about someone who firmly believes that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic and rejecting the one and only remedy for alcoholism is tantamount to suicide.

And, btw, my brother had a similar experience to what you describe about your husband. He checked himself into adult RTC voluntarily. Actually waited a number of weeks for an open bed in a 6 week program. They did force stepcraft, but they also had a pretty diverse library, and that's what he talked about having been so helpful.

He also quit AA after a few months and had the most productive and seemingly happiest dozen or so years just working and smoking copious amounts of pot. Now he's back in AA and we don't speak. I remember when he did his amends thing w/ me. He emailed me something to the effect of "I'm sorry you got all bent out of shape over my attempt to help you...." Long story. But suffice it to say that it was more of an indictment than an apology.

Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734

[Antigen]

I think Amanda just has AA friends because AA is where she was hanging out at the time. I'm not worried about this kid at all. She's got a lot more on the ball, imo, than a whole lot of us did in similar circumstances!

Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931580587/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Peter McWilliams