Does anyone think AA is a cult?

[GregFL]

I agree Ginger, she seems open to new ideas and ways of thinking.


GOOD LUCK AMANDA.

[Anonymous]

Thanks All for the encouragement and the kindness.

Ginger,
I was just thinking at work about how I was in AA at first. One thing that I felt really inhibited me about the program and AA was I felt afraid of the people who were "bad" for me. Like I had this cousin Rich who I got into some trouble with before i went to the program and therefore he was on my bad friends list. He is one of the best kids ever. He doesnt overdo it with smoking and drinking, is getting his degree in math, and is just all around nice. But because of the program, I was wary of him when I first came home. I went to his room one day and found old paraphanalia and old baggies with seeds and stems and stuff and told his parents. Now I would never do such a thing and he and I have discussed it over and over. I feel terrible for it. That is just one example of how AA can kind of skew your perceptions a bit. Its like anyone who might possible hurt your sobriety you stay away from. I remember when I came home from the program, I saw an old friend from High school that I got high with alot. I actually walked across the busy street to aviod talking to her I was so afraid of relapse. It is really ridiculous. And I remember my good friend Bone didnt talk to me for a while when I relapsed after 3 years in AA. But she apologized about it later and we are really better friends now. So yes, AA can instil a fear of people who are not bad for you just because they can drink and smoke responsibly. But for the most part, I feel the peopel I know still from AA are understanding of me and my choices and we let eachother be about it. ANd I am happy they are happy.

Amanda

[Antigen]

Kudos, Amanda! Takes some people years to get that figured out.

Janis, Jimi, Gery, Timothy... Did you HAVE to get so close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous

[cherish wisdom]

I've been reading all of these posts with great interest.  First of all - Antigen - if there are say 10 million alcoholics going to AA and it helps 10% - well that's one-million potential drunks off the road and living healthier lives.  
Is there a better program? Obviously this is the program that is recommended the most.  Probably a lot of those people with their slips to sign aren't there because they want to be - they are there because of a court order.  No one can force anyone to change.  People will only change when they have a real desire.  

AA is a program that does help people stay sober. Of course no one can do anything unless they want it enough.  AA probably provides the support that some people need. It's certainly not an abusive program.  There are no punishment cells - no take downs - no abuse. No one is going to force you to do anything.  

I think it's a worthwhile program -but it's not for everyone - particularly those who have no religious beliefs.  [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-18 20:59 ]

[Anonymous]

Cayo,
Just a quick question. Did you not get to finish school in your program? I remember Ginger talking about how in Straight, you didtn get to go to read let alone go to school for the first three months. Are you not able to go to school?

Amanda

[Anonymous]

I would like to respond to the post by Cherish. Hey there. I just wanted to say that I can look at this all from both perspectives. I have seen how AA works to help people I know stay sober. However, I can see it from Cayo, ginger, and Gregs side to in that, AA is a program that, like religion, says in order for it to work, you must follow everything to a tee. However, I feel that is off. It was, like religious docterin, written by men for one, and therefore is a bit biased towards men. Have you read the chapter "to the wives"? It was also written by a man from the 50s. Being a woman, I find it hard to follow a book written for men. I like some of the principles and stuff abd wouldnt just no tlike it because it is mostly for men. But it is biased in saying it is the only way. When I was a hard core Christian, it was VERY easy for me to accept AA. It is mostly based on a higher power, although the higher power does not have to be God or any religious symbol. In terms of the Big Book, im not a fan. In terms of alot of people Ive met in meetings I am a fan. It's like a big support group. But alot of AA people, like Ginger and others have said, are freaking Nazis about AA, and anyone with an open mind and a brain would be turned off by that. AA, like everything else, is in need of revision. It is 50 some odd years since it was written. Times have changed. Society has changed alot. Therefore, AA should change to fit the needs of todays alcoholic. And I agree with Greg Cayo and others about how we need moderation management integrated into our society. I used to think I couldnt drink ever. I do drink ecessivly when I drink. I just dont do it though. Havnt gone to a meeting in  about two years and I am ok with that. I can have a glass of wine occasionally and that is ok with me too. I dont feel guilty anymore. Also, I quit smoking. I just did it. I took all these people on the forums advice and just quit. No therapy, no support groups, not a piece of nicotine gum or one patch. It is the most addictive substance on earth. I used to limit myself by saying I was addicited and therefore needed some extreme way of quitting. That is not always the case. I no longer beleive everything I hear and now feel alot more empowered. Not to say I am not glad AA is out there for those who can swallow the docterine and can use it to their advantage. I am glad it is there for them. I wouldnt take it away from them just because I dont feel it works for me. But, I also think they could stand to see other things that work to to see AA is not the only way. And it is recomended to people so much because the system really dosnt think there are other options. And if those people try it and like it good for them I say. But if they try it and dont, I beleive they are entitled to try something different with out being told they are in denial about their disease.
Amanda

[bandit1978]

Amanda-  I know what you mean, about "bad friends"...when I was at Provo Canyon, my parents were allowed to make a list of people I was not allowed to receive mail from.  A "restricted list".

The night before I left to go there, I went through my phone book, and made up names and "pager" numbers, because my mother was convinced that anyone who had a pager was a "drug dealer", so I wanted to just see how ignorant she really was.  Of course, all of these faux names and numbers appeared on my "restricted list".

But there was one girl who was on the "restricted list", whom I was real good friends with.  I could never figure out why she was "restricted", and my mother would never give me a straight answer.  

When I was a older, and out of the program, I knew this one guy, he was lots of fun.  His parents shipped him off to some short-term RTC.  I was so excited when he came back, and he was like "I don't hang out with anyone who 'uses'".  I was like, "what do you mean?  are you saying that if I smoke pot once in awhile that you cannot hang out with me?  even if i don't do it with you??".  That was in fact what he meant.  I thought that was so weird.  I don't really know whatever happened to him, but hopefully he was able to find a more balanced perspective.

However, like I said before, like having one friend in prison is understandable, but if *all* my friends were in prison, that would be kind of strange.  You've got to set high standards for yourself, because no one else can do that for you.  I find that diversity and variety are essential.  Just keep that in mind, from someone a few years older than yourself.  Good luck.

[Anonymous]

I can kindof see how the "all my friends are in AA" thing could happen and the person be alright.

I'm very introverted, to the point of almost being reclusive.  I like people, they just overwhelm me to the point that I'm not really not having fun in quantities and doses that other people are really happy with.

I tend to go through phases where all or almost all the people I hang with are from the same activity--whatever I'm most into then.  Right now, it's martial arts.  Just about all the people I hang with regularly, in person, are from the local dojo.  Mostly because that's where I spend a lot of my out of the house time.  Writing is a pretty solitary job.

What would seem unlivable or unhealthy to an extrovert is normal for me.  An extrovert's comfort zone is that they'd just be miserably unhappy without a certain number and range of people all around for a certain percentage of their day each day.  An introvert's comfort zone is still to need people---just fewer and less, and to be overwhelmed to the point of not having a positive experience anymore if faced with too much and too many.

Different people have different people needs.  I don't know if any specific person is more introverted or extroverted unless I personally know them, but I can certainly see someone having just about all their friends, at any given time, be from the activity where they're spending the biggest chunk their free time.

And I can see that being completely healthy within the context of the person's personality.

Just takes us back to that whole "people are different" thing.

Timoclea

[GregFL]

CW, the problem is that isn't the case.  Statistics show that AA has a zero percent success rate.  Also, the government sentences people to AA, a religious organization, in violation of our constitution.  I fully support any individuals right to join any club or group, even offensive ones, but when the government starts forcing this dogma on its citizens, something is amiss.

The whole thing stinks.

[cherish wisdom]

Greg - I made the comment because Antigen indicated first that there was a 5% success rate and then a 10% success rate.  I think it's reasonable to conclude that there are some success stories - AA probably helps some people stay away from alcohol. I do agree that it probably needs to be updated for the 21st centruy.  I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years. I say five years because cancer is considered cured if the person remains cancer free for five years. You'd have to show how many of those going to AA meetings have been sober for one year up to 20 years. At what point would you consider AA to be successful? It sounds like you are bitter about it because perhaps a court ordered you to attend meetings. I can understand that.  AA has helped many people enjoy years of sobriety. They may go off the wagon from time to time - but that doesn't mean the program isn't working. Many people go back and forth because they are human.  It's just like any problem one desires to overcome. Take overeating for example.
Some people diet and loose a lot of weight.  Soon they go back to their old ways and the pounds come back on.  Others have gastric bypass - and even with such a drastic "cure" for obesity - some of them learn how to cheat and gain their weight back again.  
AA is nothing more than a support group like weight watchers.  It helps people stay away from alchol just like weight wathchers helps people stay away from too much food.  Both have success rates of 5% to 10%.  Having support from people in the same boat is very helpful for some.  It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS.  The "higher power" in AA can be anything. One man at an AA meeting said his higher power was his girlfriend. They do not suggest who that higher power need to be. It can be Budah, God, Jesus, your dog, your friend, -

I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point.  There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA.  Why don't you construct a better program for those who need to overcome alcoholism?  This 12 step program seems to help people in many ways.  It's also used for over-eaters, smokers and sex addictis. It seems like you just look at your own one-sided research to prove your point.  That's not being very objective..... Show me your researh and I'll show you research to the contrary. We could go on and on until in an endless circle and spend a lifetime doing it.   :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-19 08:40 ]

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't you rather be "sentenced" to AA than to jail or furlough?  One year of hour long AA meetings three times a week or a year of being locked in a 8X8 foot jail cell 20 hours per day.  HMMMMMMMMM I think I'd take the three hours of AA meeting per week...... :lol:

[GregFL]

Cherish Wisdom, your conclusion fails to take into account people that would quit anyway. Read the link above, that may help you.

For instance, if a disease has a 25 % recovery rate by itself, and then a pill comes onto the market, and 25% of the people that take it go into recovery, what is the success ratio of the pill?  It is zero.  Apply that logic to AA , and we are on the same page.


The next anon post...you just haven't given this any thought in the context of seperation of church and state, have you?

When the government threatens you with either inprisonment or a religious service, the government is guilty of coercion and violates our constitution. Which you would choose is meaningless in this discussion.

[GregFL]

On 2005-05-19 08:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:

"Greg - I made the comment because Antigen indicated first that there was a 5% success rate and then a 10% success rate.  I think it's reasonable to conclude that there are some success stories - AA probably helps some people stay away from alcohol. I do agree that it probably needs to be updated for the 21st centruy.  I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years. I say five years because cancer is considered cured if the person remains cancer free for five years. You'd have to show how many of those going to AA meetings have been sober for one year up to 20 years. At what point would you consider AA to be successful? It sounds like you are bitter about it because perhaps a court ordered you to attend meetings. I can understand that.  AA has helped many people enjoy years of sobriety. They may go off the wagon from time to time - but that doesn't mean the program isn't working. Many people go back and forth because they are human.  It's just like any problem one desires to overcome. Take overeating for example.

Some people diet and loose a lot of weight.  Soon they go back to their old ways and the pounds come back on.  Others have gastric bypass - and even with such a drastic "cure" for obesity - some of them learn how to cheat and gain their weight back again.  

AA is nothing more than a support group like weight watchers.  It helps people stay away from alchol just like weight wathchers helps people stay away from too much food.  Both have success rates of 5% to 10%.  Having support from people in the same boat is very helpful for some.  It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS.  The "higher power" in AA can be anything. One man at an AA meeting said his higher power was his girlfriend. They do not suggest who that higher power need to be. It can be Budah, God, Jesus, your dog, your friend, -



I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point.  There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA.  Why don't you construct a better program for those who need to overcome alcoholism?  This 12 step program seems to help people in many ways.  It's also used for over-eaters, smokers and sex addictis. It seems like you just look at your own one-sided research to prove your point.  That's not being very objective..... Show me your researh and I'll show you research to the contrary. We could go on and on until in an endless circle and spend a lifetime doing it.   :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-19 08:40 ]"

I could answer this point by point but it would be meaningless. You have too many erroneous conclusions. For instance, that a higher power was added to AA because of prayer studies. That is false..the prayers were part of the program from the beginning, and further, these "experiments" with prayer have all been done by "christian researchers" and have failed to repeat by independent researchers with proper controls. Therefore, the studies are moot. A scientific hypothesis must be repeatable and peer reviewed. These studies have FLUNKED MISERABLY on both accounts.


CW, you are free to believe in AA all you want, but you need to think thru some of these responses.

And no, I was never sentenced to AA in my life. I am not an alcholic and don't drink very much at all.

But thanks for the erroneous conclusion!

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-19 08:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:

 I think you're wrong about it having only a 0% success rate and I challenge you to show me some professional research that demonstrates that not one person who goes to AA meetings stays sober for at least - say 5 years.

I get the 5 - 10 percent figure from AA's own claims. And the 0% success comes from the fact that problem drinkers who forgoe formal intervention of any kind also quit or practice moderation at about the same rate.

That some people attribute their success to their AA attendance is fine by me. I only have a problem w/ people in positions of authority over others believing (and acting on the belief) that AA is the only way to quit drinking and it has a huge success rate.

It's not something that should eraticated from society just because some feel it a cult and so forth. As far as it being religion based - that's BS.  

Not according to the courts. For the purposes of the establishment clause (which is the aspect of the thing Ii'm interested in) AA has been identified as a religion by every court I know of that's considered the question.

That's the difference. No one here is talking about erradicating AA or outlawing it. We're just talking about not forcing anyone to participate w/o informed consent. On the other side of the debate dias stand an often unreasonable mob of steppers who do seem to think people should be forced to participate in their religion and who tend to regard any critical discussion of that religion as a threat to their very existance.

I think there's research out there to prove anyone's point.  There is definitely research that shows how prayer helps people recover from diseases. I think this is why the higher powere was added to AA.  

Added? Are you joking? AA split off from the Oxford group. It started out as a radical religious cult and then added the 12 steps (why 12? Cause there were 12 apostles!)

Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-19 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Wouldn't you rather be "sentenced" to AA than to jail or furlough?  One year of hour long AA meetings three times a week or a year of being locked in a 8X8 foot jail cell 20 hours per day.  HMMMMMMMMM I think I'd take the three hours of AA meeting per week...... :lol: "

You would think so, but it's not really that simple. Those court orders often include sponsor requirements and snitch clauses. If the sponsor deems you noncompliant (for refusing to agree that one is afflicted w/ the genetic disease of alcoholism, for example) you can very well land up doing the time, and then some.

Here's a nice site on the topic:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked,  and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that  the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque  self-deception."  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517150735/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9