Author Topic: Involuntary Committment... Notice Any Similarities  (Read 23320 times)

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Offline Antigen

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Involuntary Committment... Notice Any Similarities
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2005, 08:08:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-15 16:54:00, Paul wrote:

"Ginger,



I am also on psychotropic medications

with no side effects.



Not all patients have side effects.

That's absolutely incorrect. I won't ask you to state publicly which drug you take. That's a private matter. But I would highly recomend that you find a copy of the PDR (all libraries and pharmacies have them) and look into it. Not so that you'll be needlessly scared of your drugs, but so that you'll know the long term effects on various of your body's systems and be able to take steps to mitigate the damage. SSRIs and amphetamines, for example, are known to be very hard on your liver. So you might check into milk thistle or Actigall if you prefer pills to raw herbs.

Quote

You know that, you know better than

to assume that "all" have side effects.

Evidently, much of what you know simply isn't true. There is not a single drug in all of the pharmacopea w/o some side effects.

Quote

We have had early and periodic testing

in San Diego and California for three

or so years, we have gotten no complaints

on the mental health board...

... that you know of.

Quote

There is criteria for diagnosis. Social

control is not one of them.

Sure, in a perfect world. In this world people are generally in charge of all of these altruistic efforts. And people are as easily seduced by personal power as by any drug or money.

Come on, Paul! Do you honestly believe that each and every child dxed w/ ADD, ADHD, ADD/ADHD, ODD is actually disordered? Or do you suppose that some of the adults in charge of these kids might be unable or unwilling to handle normal kids? The benevolent dictators at the DOE have stated publicly that over half of school aged kids are disordered and need to be drugged. This can't possibly be true, of course. By definition, over half would be the majority and would dictate what is normal.

Quote

Medications do not turn people into

lemmings, you should know that also!

Some of them do. Thorazine is well known for that. MDMA and LSD are both known to induce a highly suggestible state. That's one of the reasons why old hippies try to caution young psychadelic adventurers to never, ever try these drugs in strange company or, indeed, w/o a trusted person to stay straight and look out for their wellbeing.

Quote

What is up with these "absolute" beliefs,

what is your agenda."


What absolute beliefs?

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2005, 08:10:00 PM »
I meant check into Dr. Mosher's program:
The Soteria site is packed with very useful information:
http://www.moshersoteria.com/

Let me know what happens?

You do know that Dr. Mosher was head of the
Schizophrenia research division at the NIMH.
He knows all about evidence based practices
and chose to go a different path ... to
obscurity.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2005, 08:16:00 PM »
Two years ago Dr. Mosher offered to
pay consumers memberships in this
organization.

No one took him up on it.

It was at that time I asked how many
members are in the US, his response
was 600 in total ...
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2005, 08:25:00 PM »
Here is a good compilation of mental health
sites:

http://www.geocities.com/postcard_Cathy/

If they are all wrong then you all better
get busy and tell them that inspite of their
better mental health, either with or
without medications, they need the advice
of the anti-pschiatry movement to save
themselves from believing how they feel.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2005, 08:29:00 PM »
I am on 225 mg of Effexor
and 75 mg of Lamictal.

No biggie, I lead a very public life,
and I don't feel stigmitized or victimized.

The most progress I had in my recovery
was from ECT in 2001.

I have had no major depressions since, and
my volume of medication is way, way down.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2005, 08:36:00 PM »
OK Ginger, you are right, I have side
effects, it is terrible ... oh my!

They are controlling me, I must do
what they say, I repeat everything
I read and hear ...

If I feel normal, I know it is a trick,
...

Do you feel better now?

You win, every damn person who has had
positive results from medications is
wrong, just plain wrong.

That BTW is what the high fa-lutin,
anti-psychiatry lady told me about
my roomate who was in a state psych
hospital. I told her he is doing
fine, since he got away from Morningstar
and went back on his meds.

He is working, dating, and well living
a pretty normal life as far as I can see.
She told me it is a shame he was tricked
into medications and that he is doing
it all wrong ...

If that is wrong, then I am wrong ...

OK, everyone happy now?

Except Timoclea and I, we of course, have
it all wrong!

Now that we know it too the world is a better
place, yippie!
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or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2005, 08:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-15 17:29:00, Paul wrote:

"I am on 225 mg of Effexor
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ssristox.html

Quote

and 75 mg of Lamictal.

Couldn't find much on this one. Interestingly, 3 times when I clicked on results I got sites that spawned multiple pop-ups and tried to install spywear. Once? Ok, could be just another mad spammer capitalizing on popular search terms. But 3 times??? I give up! I guess I'm just not that curious about it after all.



Quote

No biggie, I lead a very public life,

and I don't feel stigmitized or victimized.



The most progress I had in my recovery

was from ECT in 2001.



I have had no major depressions since, and

my volume of medication is way, way down."


Bottom line, at least as regards this discussion, is that you and your medical professionals have concluded that these interventions are worth the risks to you. I have no problem w/ that. I have a daughter who must take highly toxic crap every day in order to stay alive. We were just fortunate enough to land in the lap of a medical team that has a profound respect for the first tenet of the Hypocratic Oath. We work w/ them to ensure that she's taking as little as is prudent and that we're doing all we can to mitigate the long term damage.

However, that's not how shrinks normal practice their craft. And that's what we're talking about here, isn't it? Weren't we talking about expanding involuntary commitment powers? Dude, I spent two years imprisoned by total lunatics under threat of Florida's whack involuntary commitment powers. You see, whether you view it that way or not, there are people out there who are drawn to vocations and activities which place them in positions of authority over vulnerable others. And some of them are sadistic idiots who think everybody could use a dose or two of their good medicine. They have too much power already. They don't need any more.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-- C.S. Lewis.

He who laughs lasts
--Crazy Mac

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2005, 11:51:00 PM »
Ginger,

I don't know what happened to you prior
to age 18, that caused you to be involuntarily
committed to a? Hospital, School or Jail ...

As an adult, you would have rights, paid for
by the government to guarantee that the law
is upheld.

Where are all these people that are involuntarily
committed?

Psychiatric hospital beds accross the country are down.

State run psychiatric hospitals are down.

As stated on the PBS Frontline show, "The New
Asylums" the jail beds are up, way up.

Is that the population that you are referring to?

Regarding using http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ as
a reference website? Hmmm, I have never heard of
it before. Getting spiders from their links? Got me.

There is sites available for both Effexor and
Lamictal, I don't think you should be worried
about any sinister plot from you trying to
link on to learn some information. I am not
worried.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2005, 12:10:00 AM »
If anyone cared to figure out the 40,000
patients with over eight perscriptions
in Mass, the total comes to 4.2% of all
Medicaid in that state.

Since Medicaid/Medicare is the safety
net for high volume users of private
health insurance, the amount invested
to look into and "manage" these cases
may backfire. They just may meet medical
necessity standards.

BTW - do you all remember during the 90's
when welfare fraud was the big rage in
the US? Does anyone know what percentage
of welfare recipients where fraudulant?

one percent ...

Sometimes the hype and anger that is
directed towards immaterial numbers
ends up costing more to remedy a
system that is not broken.

I would be curious as to what happened
in Mass when they got done investigating
those 40,000 patients.
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2005, 12:14:00 AM »
"Dude, I spent two years imprisoned by total lunatics under threat of Florida's whack involuntary commitment powers."

What law where you committed under?

Where did you spend your time?

How did you become free?

---

"You see, whether you view it that way or not, there are people out there who are drawn to vocations and activities which place them in positions of authority over vulnerable others. And some of them are sadistic idiots who think everybody could use a dose or two of their good medicine. They have too much power already. They don't need any more."

I agree. That is why being accurate and not over
hyping problems where they don't exist is important. When there is a problem being vigilant
is very important.

Understanding the law, and complying with the
law are paramount.

BTW - I still can't find the law proposed that
started this thread? Anyone have a link for me?
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or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2005, 12:20:00 AM »
Has Fornit's come up with a list of
"Best Practices" or is it just a
bitch list?

I would be interested in reading the
recommendation of those who have
been through the private industry's
solution to teen "problems" and to
compare that to how public schools
handle the same populations.

Regarding children's mental health.
If you all look up the mental health
board in your county and attend the
meetings you will find a children's
system of care department. Join a
committee or as a member of the public
you are welcome to sit in on meetings.

I would be curious as to how you all
would feel about the mental health
system if you started to attend the
administrative meetings?
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or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2005, 12:30:00 AM »
???

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fl ... gle+Search

You do know that the reformed law in New York
is reducing hospital stays, by improving
AOT, or Assisted Oupatient Treatment ...

[So where is the involuntary committment here?]

"The results are clear. Kendra's Law works."
- New York Gov. George Pataki, Newsday, March 8, 2005. Read a summary of the results Gov. Pataki cites.

ASSISTED OUTPATIENT TREATMENT:
RESULTS FROM NEW YORK'S KENDRA'S LAW
READ THE REPORT: N.Y. State Office of Mental Health (March 2005). Kendra's Law: Final report on the status of assisted outpatient treatment. New York: Office of Mental Health.

READ TAC's PRESS RELEASE

SUMMARY: Kendra?s Law is New York?s law for assisted outpatient treatment. The New York State Office of Mental Health released its ?Final Report on the Status of Assisted Outpatient Treatment? on March 1, 2005, which details the outcomes for the first five years of Kendra?s Law. Assisted outpatient treatment drastically reduced hospitalization, homelessness, arrest, and incarceration among the people with severe psychiatric disorders in the program, while at the same time increasing their adherence to treatment and overall quality of life. The adoption of assisted outpatient treatment also resulted in fundamental changes to the overall New York mental health system, leading to enhanced accountability and improved treatment plan collaboration for all service recipients ? effectively committing the system to the patient, not just the patient to the system.

* * *

Kendra?s Law helps those who need it most

As of March 1, 2005, 3,908 individuals received treatment orders under Kendra?s Law.1 An average of 62 individuals per month, or 747 individuals per year, were ordered to maintain treatment under the program.2 That is approximately 39 per year per million people in the state population.3

As intended, the individuals placed in assisted outpatient treatment (AOT) were among the most severely ill. In the three years prior to the court order, almost every participant ? 97 percent ? had at least one psychiatric hospitalization (with an average of three hospitalizations per recipient). When compared with a similar population of mental health service recipients, those placed in AOT had been twice as likely to have been homeless, 50 percent more likely to have had contact with the criminal justice system, and 58 percent more likely to have a co-occurring mental illness and substance abuse condition.

Kendra?s Law reduces the severest consequences from lack of treatment

During the course of court-ordered treatment4, when compared to the three years prior to participation in the program, AOT recipients experienced far less hospitalization, homelessness, arrest, and incarceration. Specifically, for those in the AOT program:

    *

      74 percent fewer experienced homelessness;
    *

      77 percent fewer experienced psychiatric hospitalization;
    *

      83 percent fewer experienced arrest; and
    *

      87 percent fewer experienced incarceration.

Kendra?s Law reduces costs for the most expensive services

Inpatient hospitalization is by far the most expensive form of psychiatric treatment available today. One of the most dramatic benefits to individuals participating in the Kendra?s Law program was a marked reduction in the total number of days spent hospitalized. On average, AOT recipients spent 50 days in the hospital for psychiatric care during the six months prior to AOT, a number that was reduced 56 percent for participants during a matched period. Even after the termination of the court order, the decline continued ? during the first six months following the end of the AOT order, total hospital days were reduced to an average of 13, a 73 percent reduction from the pre-AOT total. Individuals who meet Kendra?s Law strict eligibility standard typically already consume significant inpatient and outpatient treatment dollars. The majority received case management, medication management, and/or individual or group therapy prior to AOT. Assisted outpatient treatment can reduce costs by reducing the ineffective use of existing services.

Kendra?s Law reduces harmful behavior

Kendra?s Law also resulted in dramatic reductions in the incidence of harmful behaviors for AOT recipients at six months in AOT as compared to a similar period of time prior to the court order:

    *

      55 percent fewer recipients engaged in suicide attempts or physical harm to self;
    *

      49 percent fewer abused alcohol;
    *

      48 percent fewer abused drugs;
    *

      47 percent fewer physically harmed others;
    *

      46 percent fewer damaged or destroyed property; and
    *

      43 percent fewer threatened physical harm to others.

Overall, the average decrease in harmful behavior was 44 percent.

Kendra?s Law improves treatment compliance

Individuals in the Kendra?s Law program were also much more likely to regularly participate in services and take medication as prescribed by the treating physician.

    *

      The number of individuals exhibiting good adherence to medication increased by 103 percent (from only 34 percent to 69 percent).
    *

      The number of individuals exhibiting good service engagement increased by 51 percent (from 41 percent to 62 percent).

Kendra?s Law recipients value the program

Researchers with the New York State Psychiatric Institute and Columbia University conducted face-to-face interviews with 76 AOT recipients to assess their opinions about the program, perceptions of coercion or stigma associated with the court order and, most importantly, quality of life as a result of AOT. While the interviews showed that the experience of being court-ordered into treatment made about half of recipients  feel angry or embarrassed, after they received treatment, AOT recipients overwhelmingly endorsed the effect of the program on their lives:

    *

      75 percent reported that AOT helped them gain control over their lives;
    *

      81 percent said that AOT helped them to get and stay well; and
    *

      90 percent said AOT made them more likely to keep appointments and take medication.

Additionally, 87 percent said they were confident in their case manager?s ability to help them ? and 88 percent said that they and their case manager agreed on what is important for them to work on. AOT had a positive effect on the therapeutic alliance.

Kendra?s Law improves the system?s ability to help those in need

Not only is Kendra?s Law helping the individuals in the program, it is also helping the system better provide treatment to all those in need. The New York Office of Mental Health detailed some of these systemic benefits in its final report: "Counties and stakeholder groups statewide have reported that the implementation of processes to provide AOT to individuals under court orders has resulted in beneficial structural changes to local mental health service delivery systems? The implementation of AOT has also supported the development of more collaborative relationships between the mental health and court systems. AOT has been instrumental in increasing accountability at all system levels regarding delivery of services to high need individuals.?

The increased accountability led to a shift in the manner in which treatment to high need individuals was viewed: ?Local mental health systems began to identify the potential risk posed by not responding to individuals in need, and as a result, those systems improved their ability to respond more efficiently and effectively.?

ENDNOTES

1 This statistic and all others cited in this summary, unless otherwise noted, are from the following source: N.Y. State Office of Mental Health (March 2005). Kendra?s law: Final report on the status of assisted outpatient treatment. New York: Office of Mental Health.

2 3,908 individuals over the first 5.23 years of the program (11/8/99 ? 2/1/05) = 747.7 individuals per year, or 62.3 per month. This is notably fewer people than the 10,000 people per year that Kendra?s Law opponents predicted would be swept into the ?dragnet? of the law.

3 New York?s population is approximately 19 million. See http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36000.html.

4 The average timeframe for court orders was 16 months, and ranged from six months to more than 30 months.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

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* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
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Offline Antigen

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Involuntary Committment... Notice Any Similarities
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2005, 01:04:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-15 21:14:00, Paul wrote:

""Dude, I spent two years imprisoned by total lunatics under threat of Florida's whack involuntary commitment powers."



What law where you committed under?

I wasn't committed, just threatened. I had to sign myself in "voluntarily" or my parents and a couple of other program parents w/ the necessary credentials said they would have me court ordered for two years.

Quote

Where did you spend your time?

In a blue chair in a warehouse on Cattlemen Road in Sarasota, Florida.

Quote


How did you become free?



I ran, repeatedly. Then, just prior to my 18th b-day, I ran again. Got lucky. HRS (Florida's old name for CYS) was at odds w/ the program and gave me free housing and a lawyer. Now here's the interesting part that you don't seem to understand about how things really work. When I ran, I ran to Georgia where 17 is the default age of majority for most purposes. So they couldn't just call me a runaway and force me back in. So they got a program friendly judge to sign an extradition order for the "crime" of being a chronic runaway in Florida.

It almost worked, too. I was arrested and held in Cobb County then Macon County JDC for a couple of weeks, flown to Florida where I was told an HRS worker would meet me at the airport. Instead, my mother and a couple of Program staffers tried to kidnap me upon landing. I was just lucky that the plane deboarded out on the tarmack instead of one of those closed walkways leading right into the terminal or I would not have seen them. I refused to get off the plane w/o a security escort, who took me to a customs room where I waited another hour or so for the HRS caseworker.

I then spent about a month voluntarily confined to a group home while I waited for a hearing. By voluntarily confined I mean that they asked me not to leave the property w/o checking my plans w/ the house parent or staffer on duty and definitely not w/o a group of at least 3 other pple, preferably including Willy the boxer. The reason for this was that they had had escapees from Straight, Inc. there before and there had been kidnapping attempts.

Now, I recognize that this is probably a bizarro world grade worst case scenareo. These people are bug all crazy lunatics who have strong connections that go all the way to the Whitehouse. Sound daffy? Ok, here it is from the horse's ass. http://thestraights.com/video/bush.rm

However, my experience is far from unique. This is a growth industry. It's the fastest growing industry in this country next to public prisons. And TOUGHLOVE parent hategroups have always offered nifty tips and suggestions to their new members on how to employ every loop hole and dirty trick in the book in order to get your troubling teenager under legal coercion.

I just don't think they need any more tricks in their bag. Do you? Oh yeah. On your planet, there's no such thing as a sadistic psycho fronting as a therapist.  :roll:

God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins. and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
--

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2005, 01:09:00 AM »
Wow, like I said, I am uninformed on the
laws for those under 18.

Thanks for writing up your experience.
I don't take it lightly.

Does the law have two components,
under 18 and adult?
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Offline cherish wisdom

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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2005, 01:20:00 AM »
It depends on the state. I did a lot of research in Utah. One of the laws allows a child who is over 16 and a voluntary patient to be discharged within 72 hours.  They can not legally hold them unless they get a court order. Of course this law is totally ignored in the youth industry because they have somehow been able to circumvent it.  

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram' target='_new'>BINGO!

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If you lack wisdom ask of God and it shall be given to you.\"