Author Topic: Involuntary Committment... Notice Any Similarities  (Read 23322 times)

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Offline Paul

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« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2005, 02:20:00 PM »
I wish Fornits had a
"understanding your rights"

"what to do, who to call, in
an emergency for these types
of incidents:

a)
b)
c)

"Best Practices for Teen Behavioral Industry"

and items like this.

Complaining is good, and often good for
one's soul. Compiling great information
and providing it to those in need is
the next step. Then influencing public
policy is next. Then, of course, policing
those policies so that they become the
normal way of doing business would be
success.

If this is already done, I am a novice, and
my apologies.

Anyway, that is my wish.

There are many, many knowledgable people
here, that now know more than the policy
and law makers. Band together, get involved
join and advocate!

In my little world of mental health I find
it very rewarding.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2005, 02:24:00 PM »
Oh, if anyone hates admistrative
policy making and hearings, this
idea of joining local, state
and national boards and committees
may not be for you.

I don't imply it is for everyone,
and please don't think I believe
others will enjoy it like I do.
I am surprised how much I enjoy it.

Rather, please spread the word that
it is possible to get involved and
be heard, and to bring your experience
and suggestions to the table.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2005, 04:47:00 PM »
On top of the US having one of the most HORRIBLE health care systems in the world....Our lovely Bush mafia (and I mean that in the most loving way) has now made it so that its even harder for people to file bankruptcy even if it is due to being unable to pay medical bills. So the 64 yr old couple on SSI who make under 1,200 a month and don't have health insurance and had to have a $95,000 heart bypass surgery can't even stop the daily phone calls from the collection agencies. How does this couple find relief??? They dont. They dont qualify for medicaid because they make too much money, and they cant file bankruptcy to stop the phone calls. So the only option is to disconnect their phone??? PULEEZE. This administration does not give a shit what their populace is going through on a daily basis. And now they make it even harder. How nice. I know someone who had to go through hoops to qualify for medicaid even though he has Diabetes, congestive heart failure, and an amputated leg. He is 64 and isnt old enough for medicare health insurance, and only makes $450 a month in SSI yet his 11 medicines cost over $750 a month. There will be no relief for this horrible situation in this country until we change the way the government runs it. It is inhumane.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Paul

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« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »
You are correct!

That is the Republican way ...

Over time, or throughout history, check
it out. Generally Republicans act in a
very selfish myopic way wrecking things
in the US. Then Democrats get in power
for short period of times and fix things.

The cycle goes over and over.

The greatest wealth in the US, was after
the US was stabilized via the Social Security
system. I believe I have posted here before
on this most misunderstood program.

Democrats know that a strong middle class
means a strong US. Republicans know if
they can bend the rules, individually
those in power will make more money.

Both statements are true! Which one
benefits the common good, and the rich?

The people of the US, they have spoken,
they are buying into this Republican
say whatever is necessary and cheat
in the elections protocol. The masses
did not come out against Bush, and
we all pay. Even the rich, ironically.

---

BTW - I hope your friend with the Diabetes
and other disorders is not in Massachusetts
because some non-medical people don't believe
that there are complicated medical cases
out there that require poly-pharmacology.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2005, 07:22:00 PM »
George Bush is one of the most ignorant politicians I have ever seen, in my 26 years.  

I really do not understand why people would vote for him!  What were these people thinking?  

If we were allowed to import cheaper drugs, then the cost of health care would go down signifigantly.  It is just plain criminal, that we are not allowed to do that.  It is absolutely criminal, and guess who is responsible?  Any citizen who does not see that is really dumb and should be allowed to vote. (I'm only half kidding).  

Also, people really need to stop with all these lawsuits against doctors.  The fact is, when you go in and have a procedure done, you sign a paper stating that you understand the risks that are involved.  Doctors are not robots, they are human, and so are patients.  Sometimes, the outcome may not be what was expected, thats just the way it is.  It doesn't mean that the doctor did something wrong (not always, anyway).  People need to take some personal responsibility for their own bodies, and not try to blame doctors for everything that goes wrong.  That is why there aren't enough doctors today.  The older generation of doctors in my family have warned their children and grandchildren *not* to become doctors, for this very reason.  This is also why we import so many foreign doctors (not that there is anything wrong with that).  

But unless there is a clear case of gross negligence, then people need to just realize that their body is not perfect, and they should not be sueing doctors.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
egan Flynn
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2005, 10:58:00 PM »
I think your comment is too general.
When a doctor removes both your breasts and subjects you to radiaiton and chemo, and you never had cancer to begin with. When a doctor performs surgery on your son's left knee, and it was the right knee with the problem, etc.etc.etc. a lawsuit is in order.

When someone makes a mistake, by running a red light and consequently totals another's car (because they are human)... sorry, but they don't get off with an apology. Their insurance is going to pay for the damages, and they in turn might pay higher premiums. That's why doctors have medical malpractice insurance, for those human errors, which are expected. Like it or not, we live in a culture where there are consequences for human mistakes.

Do you think there would be fewer mistakes if there was no longer the threat of lawsuits? I don't.

Search around the internet on this issue. The "excessive lawsuits" defense for rising medical costs is a scape goat.

Perhaps we need a better way to evaluate the competency of doctors in this country. Used to be in China a doctor had to hang a lantern outside his practice everytime a patient died. Too many lanterns and you were looking for a new career.

Yeh, folks should take responsibility for their own bodies/ health, but few have the knowledge to do so because this country/ government has brainwashed/ conditioned its citizenry to be dependent on doctors who haven't a moment of training in the prevention of disease/illness.... To believe that science has all the answers and that there's a pill for every ill. No discipline, no moderation, no self control, except for what's necessary to remember to take your drugs, few of which actually 'cure' anything and many that cause further problems.
So it could be perceived that the lawsuits are kinda poetic justice.... a consequence, for all intents and purposes, for the AMA gradually removing from citizens the ancient wisdom of self care, and subjecting people to harmful interventions from the moment of conception.... sonograms, C-sections, infant formula, excessive immunizations, excessive antibiotics followed by overgrowth of yeast, and on and on and on till one dies on the table having an angiogram. Come to think of it, there should be more lawsuits. And people should learn to take care of themselves, forcing doctors to persue right livelihood.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Paul

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« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2005, 11:16:00 PM »
Deborah,

You are right on the "excessive lawsuit" argument.
Public Citizen, http://www.citizen.org/hrg/ has been pointing out that the majority of the lawsuits are
brought against repeat medical doctors who should
have their licenses taken away. I think it is like
2% of the doctors cause most of the lawsuites.

Your argument against how bad the system is performing is difficult to measure when the life
expectancy keeps going up and up.

The system needs improvement, but I wouldn't toss it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Paul

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« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2005, 11:52:00 PM »
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... _mz001.htm

[There are many individual articles to the topic
of digitizing medical records and medical transactions, click to link above]

 MARCH 28, 2005     ?  Editions: N. America | Europe | Asia | Edition Preference


     

  STORY TOOLS
Printer-Friendly Version
E-Mail This Story

  RELATED ITEMS
Table: How Technology Is Transforming Your Hospital -- Finally

The Doctor: Dr. Lauren Koniaris

The Nurse: Melanie Weigeshoff

The Tech Guru: Dr. Gerard Burns

A ``Clinical Portal'' Is Born

Online Extra: Digital Hospital Slide Show

Online Extra: Saving Lives Shouldn't Be This Hard

Online Extra: Meet Mr. Rounder

Online Extra: President Bush's IT Doctor

Online Extra: Crusader for Clearer E-Info

Cover Image: The Digital Hospital

?

COVER STORY

The Digital Hospital
How info tech saves lives and money at one medical center. Is this the future of health care?

Peter A. Gross has been a doctor for 40 years, rising up the ranks to become the chairman of internal medicine at Hackensack University Medical Center in Hackensack, N.J. But one day this winter, a homeless man checked in to the hospital with HIV, and Gross made a decision that could have seriously harmed his patient. He chose to give the patient an HIV drug, tapping a request into a hospital computer and zapping it off to the two-year-old digital drug-order entry system. Moments later he got back a message he never would have received before the system was in place: a warning that the drug could mix dangerously with an antidepressant the patient was already taking. Gross got on the phone to figure out the problem, eventually asking the man's psychiatrist to reduce the dosage of his antidepressant. "There's no way I would have picked that up," Gross says. "It was totally unexpected."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2005, 12:12:00 AM »
People with mental illness, yet no substance abuse problem, are as peaceful as the general population.

Treatment Advocacy Center (TAC) is a Beltway offshoot of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI), an advocacy group consisting largely consumers of mental health services and their families. Its funding comes almost entirely from the Theodore and Veda Stanley Family Foundation. Since the late 1980s, the Stanley Family has spent more than $20 million for research into the causes of schizophrenia and bi-polar illnesses, as well as the benefits of unconventional drug therapies. But the Stanley Foundation is not known for its scientific achievements as much as it is for its most prominent spokesperson, psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey.

As president of TAC, and executive director of Stanley Research, Torrey is a man with a mission: to force people with schizophrenia and manic-depressive illness into involuntary treatment. Once considered the patron saint of the family advocacy movement, his clamor for involuntary outpatient treatment in the last five years has dimmed his leadership and threatened the coherence of the movement he helped shape (Mental Health Weekly, 2/19/01).

Torrey explains his obsession with forcing people into treatment--it even crept into testimony about homelessness before the House Committee on Banking and Financial Services (3/5/97)--by discussing a unique category of "untreated" people with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorders, a category he created that remains unrecognized in both government and academic research. These folks, he says, are responsible for 20 murders a week, 1,000 a year.

The National Stigma Clearinghouse, which monitors reports of mental illness and alleged violence, challenges TAC's message. According to a letter to the editor Clearinghouse director Jean Arnold wrote to Behavioral Healthcare Tomorrow (4/00), "Actual acts of violence by psychiatric survivors are few and far between. TAC embellishes each episode with bogus homicide numbers."

Others at TAC have acknowledged that the focus on the violence of the mentally ill is in part a cynical ploy to encourage funding for treatment. "People care about public safety," TAC publicist D.J. Jaffee told a workshop at the 1999 meetings of NAMI. "Once you understand that, it means that you have to take the debate out of the mental health arena and put it in the criminal justice/public safety arena." He had earlier advised a local New York advocacy group (SIAMI Newsletter, Vol. 9/12, 1994), "It may be necessary to capitalize on the fear of violence."

To accomplish this goal, TAC has devised a strategy to romance the press--producing material for soundbites, scenarios and statistics that can be used to pitch to the media. These efforts have borne results. Dan Rather led with "1,000 homicides" on a 48 Hours broadcast (4/12/00); Lesley Stahl included it on 60 Minutes (5/7/00). Judging by several dozen op-ed pieces on editorial pages in the last three years, TAC's tactics seem to work.

One gambit involves carefully timing op-ed pieces to appear after specific incidents involving a mentally ill person in a violent episode. After a mentally ill woman was killed by a police officer in California, allegedly in self-defense, several TAC op-eds appeared around the state, beginning with the Los Angeles Times (5/27/00). Later, while the state legislature debated legalizing forced treatment, two more appeared ( San Diego Union-Tribune, 2/16/00; San Francisco Chronicle, 7/6/00).

When the bill failed, Torrey and Mary T. Zdanowicz, TAC's president and executive director, wrote another L.A. Times op-ed (11/13/00), which concluded, "Perhaps next year, policymakers will come to understand that being psychotic can be deadly." This was a time-tested formula for them: The month before, a piece of theirs in the Orlando Sentinel (10/27/00) ended with, "When will Florida legislators realize that being psychotic is mindless and deadly?" And before that, in the Salt Lake City Tribune (4/16/00): "How many more preventable tragedies must Utahans bear before lawmakers realize that being psychotic is mindless and deadly?"

Part of TAC's successful strategy for linking mental illness with violence rests on a press corps that has welcomed stale soundbites used for political purposes. As New York Times columnist Frank Rich (7/29/98) wrote in the aftermath of one high-profile incident, "It's not only politicians who are complicit in this discrimination [against the mentally ill]. The media sometimes compound the ignorance that feeds it."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2005, 12:23:00 AM »
Deborah, you must have missed what I said- that lawsuits should be curbed *except in cases of gross negligence, ect*

I know lots of doctors who have been sued (frivilously), but mostly, those cases don't make it into court.  Actually, medical students are told that they should expect to get sued at least once in their career.  

And, actually, this does drive up the cost of health care (though it is certainly not the only thing that does so, I could go on and on about those other things...).  Now there is a shortage of obstetricians, because doctors don't want to deliver babies, because the risk of being sued is so high.  I don't work on an OBGYN floor, so I can't totally elaborate on that, but this is a statistical fact, which has been discussed in non-medical publications.  

But I have seen frivilous lawsuits.  Lots of them.  Emotionally, it's very difficult on physicians.  Just the threat of lawsuits effects practice- for example, doctors may refuse to perform a certain procedure, even if there is no one else around to do it, for fear of getting sued.  

But, yes, the whole system really needs reformation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
egan Flynn
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2005, 01:22:00 AM »
Where did you cut and paste this tasty morsel from?

Where did it fit into tonight's discussion?

Hello, Deborah, are you OK?

Quote
On 2005-05-16 21:12:00, Deborah wrote:

"People with mental illness, yet no substance abuse problem, are as peaceful as the general population.



Treatment Advocacy Center (TAC) is a Beltway offshoot of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI), an advocacy group consisting largely consumers of mental health services and their families. Its funding comes almost entirely from the Theodore and Veda Stanley Family Foundation. Since the late 1980s, the Stanley Family has spent more than $20 million for research into the causes of schizophrenia and bi-polar illnesses, as well as the benefits of unconventional drug therapies. But the Stanley Foundation is not known for its scientific achievements as much as it is for its most prominent spokesperson, psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey.



As president of TAC, and executive director of Stanley Research, Torrey is a man with a mission: to force people with schizophrenia and manic-depressive illness into involuntary treatment. Once considered the patron saint of the family advocacy movement, his clamor for involuntary outpatient treatment in the last five years has dimmed his leadership and threatened the coherence of the movement he helped shape (Mental Health Weekly, 2/19/01).



Torrey explains his obsession with forcing people into treatment--it even crept into testimony about homelessness before the House Committee on Banking and Financial Services (3/5/97)--by discussing a unique category of "untreated" people with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorders, a category he created that remains unrecognized in both government and academic research. These folks, he says, are responsible for 20 murders a week, 1,000 a year.



The National Stigma Clearinghouse, which monitors reports of mental illness and alleged violence, challenges TAC's message. According to a letter to the editor Clearinghouse director Jean Arnold wrote to Behavioral Healthcare Tomorrow (4/00), "Actual acts of violence by psychiatric survivors are few and far between. TAC embellishes each episode with bogus homicide numbers."



Others at TAC have acknowledged that the focus on the violence of the mentally ill is in part a cynical ploy to encourage funding for treatment. "People care about public safety," TAC publicist D.J. Jaffee told a workshop at the 1999 meetings of NAMI. "Once you understand that, it means that you have to take the debate out of the mental health arena and put it in the criminal justice/public safety arena." He had earlier advised a local New York advocacy group (SIAMI Newsletter, Vol. 9/12, 1994), "It may be necessary to capitalize on the fear of violence."



To accomplish this goal, TAC has devised a strategy to romance the press--producing material for soundbites, scenarios and statistics that can be used to pitch to the media. These efforts have borne results. Dan Rather led with "1,000 homicides" on a 48 Hours broadcast (4/12/00); Lesley Stahl included it on 60 Minutes (5/7/00). Judging by several dozen op-ed pieces on editorial pages in the last three years, TAC's tactics seem to work.



One gambit involves carefully timing op-ed pieces to appear after specific incidents involving a mentally ill person in a violent episode. After a mentally ill woman was killed by a police officer in California, allegedly in self-defense, several TAC op-eds appeared around the state, beginning with the Los Angeles Times (5/27/00). Later, while the state legislature debated legalizing forced treatment, two more appeared ( San Diego Union-Tribune, 2/16/00; San Francisco Chronicle, 7/6/00).



When the bill failed, Torrey and Mary T. Zdanowicz, TAC's president and executive director, wrote another L.A. Times op-ed (11/13/00), which concluded, "Perhaps next year, policymakers will come to understand that being psychotic can be deadly." This was a time-tested formula for them: The month before, a piece of theirs in the Orlando Sentinel (10/27/00) ended with, "When will Florida legislators realize that being psychotic is mindless and deadly?" And before that, in the Salt Lake City Tribune (4/16/00): "How many more preventable tragedies must Utahans bear before lawmakers realize that being psychotic is mindless and deadly?"



Part of TAC's successful strategy for linking mental illness with violence rests on a press corps that has welcomed stale soundbites used for political purposes. As New York Times columnist Frank Rich (7/29/98) wrote in the aftermath of one high-profile incident, "It's not only politicians who are complicit in this discrimination [against the mentally ill]. The media sometimes compound the ignorance that feeds it."



"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2005, 11:40:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-16 21:23:00, bandit1978 wrote:


But I have seen frivilous lawsuits.  Lots of them.  Emotionally, it's very difficult on physicians.  Just the threat of lawsuits effects practice- for example, doctors may refuse to perform a certain procedure, even if there is no one else around to do it, for fear of getting sued.  



But, yes, the whole system really needs reformation.
"


I agree w/ this entirely. One other little shout out to the law of unintended consequences, too. Here in PA it's not just a bothersome issue, it's all out war between doctors and lawyers. It's gotten to the point where it extremely difficult to find a doctor willing to act as a professional wittness in even the most horrible cases of negligence. Never mind even thinking about trying to pursue any kind of administrative action directed entirely at censuring hack medical ppl purely for the good of the profession and institutions. Nobody's willing to put anything in writing. You almost can't act to improve an institution w/o destroying it and no one wants to destroy them.

I honestly think the best way to improve healthcare would be to get the third party 'providers' (who pull the purse strings but actually provide nothing) out of the picture.

Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2005, 01:00:00 PM »
No, I didn?t miss what you said. I don?t know what you consider ?negligence? and ?frivolous?. I don?t know where all these people are who are filing these suits, but I?ve never encountered ONE.

This is my personal opinion, but women and infants might be better off with fewer obgyns and more midwives/doulas. Women have been birthing babies forever without the ?help? of a doctor. And many a cab driver has delivered a baby. Some Native American women birthed their babies alone.

Talk about lowering medical costs?. I don?t know what she?s charging now, but I paid my midwife $800, twenty years ago, which included pre and post natal care. She has delivered 1000+ babies and still going strong, and has never been sued. And never injured/killed a baby, to my knowledge.

Might many of the complications/injuries/deaths actually be due to unnecessary medical intervention? Like C-sections? Birthing rarely requires heroic surgical intervention. It?s more often done to meet the schedules of doctors and parents. In at 9, out at 5. Pick your child?s birthday.

I?d like to sue the SOB who convinced my daughter that she couldn?t deliver my second grandson, having successfully delivered the first vaginally. He rushed the process, neither in distress, and scared her into agreeing, putting both her and the baby at risk of complications unnecessarily. Although she was angry in hindsight, a lawsuit was never entertained. Are you aware of all the special attention a baby born C-section requires because they weren?t massaged coming down the birth canal. To subject an infant to that unnecessarily should be considered abuse, and most definitely neglect, and illegal- a violation of the infant's rights.
 
If an obgyn harms an infant with his/her barbarian practices, I see no problem with his/her insurance company paying for that child's care, possibly for the reaminder of the child's life, depending on the circumstances.

Might there be other reasons people are choosing not be to obgyns? I can think of a few...

Lots of frivolous lawsuits? Hmmm. That may be true. I don?t hear about them and personally know no one who has sued a doctor, but many who have been harmed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Paul

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« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2005, 02:14:00 PM »
Deborah,

You seem to be a re-actionary advocate,
not a pro-active advocate.

I am curious as to why are are able to
complain after your daughter's C-Section
but not explain and teach her your belief's
before the end of her pregnancy.

Did you read the doctor's notes, was there
really no reason? Did it state: "no reason"
Your daughter still has the rights to her
medical records if you forgot to find out.

I would love to hear your solutions!

Ginger states you know your stuff ...
so let's hear something other than complaints.

Jeeperz, you say natural unassisted childbirth,
then use a mid-wife!

Now you are saying there are no frivolous,
or numerous medical malpractice suits?

Did you read this in a book called:
"The Myth of Medical Malpractice Suits"
perhaps also by Thomas Szasz?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
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Offline Paul

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« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2005, 02:16:00 PM »
This is my third time asking?

Deborah, where is the link, as I stated
before, I could not find it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
or those who don\'t understand my position, on all subjects:

* Understand the law and your rights.

* Make sure you have the freedom of choice.

* Seek and receive unbiased information and
know the source of information.