A cult?

[Anonymous]

Good post ginger!
 :nworthy: Amanda

[linchpin]

When you get to heaven ..you will wish you're in hell..When will you realize you're already here?

[Antigen]

ty

All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll  behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality

[BuzzKill]

Your prayer requests don't really compell the universe to suspend it's laws for your favor.
If that were true, we'd be screwed because there are like 1000 times as many islamists as Christians. So if their prayers cancel out ours...


This is why God doesn't always comply. We often don't know what's really in our best interest - and often wish harm on others.
This is why the Christian when praying adds - Thy will be done - it is an acknowledgement that altho we think we are asking for something good and helpful - we could be wrong.
God is not a gene in a bottle. He is not in the business of granting all the petitioners wishes - or even any of them. But Prayer does have an effect that can not be explained and this has even been demonstrated scientifically. Actual controlled studies have been done that left the scientist scratching their noggins. Prayer has an effect that can not be explained.
God does answer prayer - especially, I think, when it will help with someone's spiritual walk and growth.
I have seen some minor miracles - not the sort of thing that would get written up in papers - but none the less - miracles.
And while I hate to keep hammering the same point over and over - The Biblical record is different from all other sacred writing due to the prophecy it contains. I have only mentioned a few here - but there are many hundreds of examples and they are very much specific and to the point and correct.
This is The difference. It is a very significant difference. It is proof that God is; and that He has reviled Himself to mankind through the Hebrew Prophets.


Bout this:
If that were true, we'd be screwed because there are like 1000 times as many islamists as Christians.

This is not actually true. Counting Christians is often done by counting members of Catholic churches and the major denominational church rolls.
Many Christians are not members of any organized church - myself among this number.
And world wide - this is more true than here in the US of A.
And in the last few years there has been a pouring out of God's Holy Sprit all over the world, that gets little to zero attention in the western press. Millions of people in Africa and South Korea and China, the old Soviet block, are on fire with new found faith in Christ. The winds of Revival are blowing in Ireland as well. Many are rediscovering the Love of Christ.
No one is counting them.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-23 08:30:00, BuzzKill wrote:

 But Prayer does have an effect that can not be explained and this has even been demonstrated scientifically. Actual controlled studies have been done that left the scientist scratching their noggins.

I don't think they're really scratching their noggins.  I think most of them have attributed that to the power of suggestion or the placebo effect.

I have seen some minor miracles - not the sort of thing that would get written up in papers - but none the less - miracles.

More likely that you've seen things you can't explain.  That does not mean they're 'miracles'.

And while I hate to keep hammering the same point over and over - The Biblical record is different from all other sacred writing due to the prophecy it contains.

Not really and this has been explained to you at great length by Greg and you really do just dismiss the research and evidence he's provided to you.

[GregFL]

I am in Colombia right now...not thinking much about god.

 :grin:

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-23 08:30:00, BuzzKill wrote:

This is why God doesn't always comply. We often don't know what's really in our best interest - and often wish harm on others.

If God is omnicient and omnipotent, then God always knows what's best w/o our advice and would never dream of changing things just because one imperfect, unknowing individual requests it.

Well, the laws of nature are omnipotent and omnicient (for all intents and purposes). Also accutely responsive to our every move, however completely impassible and insensitive to our wishes.

That's God! The only way in which it makes sense to believe that prayer has any effect is that it has an effect on the person doing the praying. If you start out every day by spending 30 seconds concentrating on a certain goal then, throughout the day, you'll be more mindful and tend to notice things you can do to help meet that objective, whatever it is. But "god" doesn't really alter the natural order of things to make the car come to you or a person's health or mood improve or to fulfil any wish.

I tell ya', I learned a lot about living from some of those fine Christians who educated me early on. But, as it turns out, the useful stuff is absolutely no different from the useful stuff contained in every other religion I know of.

Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton    

[BuzzKill]

// I don't think they're really scratching their noggins. I think most of them have attributed that to the power of suggestion or the placebo effect. //

That is the common dismissive argument; but it is wrong. In one study, the subject was simply bacteria in a petre dish. I can't find the articles now, but they were in a main stream media magazine - Time or Newsweek. I don't recall exactly what the effect being asked for was - But I do recall they got the effect they were asking for and it was dramatic and undeniable; and the over seeing scientist were really surprised and amazed.  Those praying were just asking for God to act upon the bacteria to show the power of prayer.  The placebo effect does not apply to bacteria.
The other studies you refer to, have to do with hospital patients, and how much better in general those receiving prayer did, than those who did not. The interesting thing here is, the patients didn't know they were being prayed for.
Something is going on here.  Call it what you will, but in a case like this, it can't be the power of suggestion or the placebo effect.

// More likely that you've seen things you can't explain. That does not mean they're 'miracles'. //

I have seen miracles - close up and personal miracles.

// Not really and this has been explained to you at great length by Greg and you really do just dismiss the research and evidence he's provided to you. //

Yes, really.
I do dismiss what Greg has said and provided - but I would quibble with the word 'just'. I have my reasons, and I feel they are very good, and sound, and based on reason.
From my perspective, it is Greg who is refusing to look honestly at the evidence abundantly found in Biblical prophecy.
He likes to point out the Jesus Myth books and web sites as proof that Jesus never was. I can counter with other web sites and books that say the accuracy & scholarship behind such claims is extremely faulty; in some cases non existent. He ignores those, and writes it off as just more Josephus history. There is much more to this than Josephus- but he is significant and means a good deal more than Greg likes to consider.
My personal thought on this Jesus Myth phenomenon, is that there is wishful thinking in Hell as well as on Earth.

// If God is omnicient and omnipotent, then God always knows what's best w/o our advice and would never dream of changing things just because one imperfect, unknowing individual requests it. //

Certainly God doesn't need our advice. Quite right. If the world were living in God's perfect will, we would no doubt have little need for the petitionairy prayer. However - we are living in a world that is not operating in His will. Not only is He willing to consider acting on behalf of a person's request - He often does. Far more so than we have any notion of. He tells us, Ask - Please ask. . . For He wants to protect and Bless us; but He will not interfere where He isn't wanted. Once again, we have Free Will.

// But "god" doesn't really alter the natural order of things to make the car come to you or a person's health or mood improve or to fulfill any wish. //

Well, yes and no. I think if a person *needs* car and asks for a car, God will provide a car. This is not the same thing as Janice expecting a Mercedes Benz - but if there is a need, and you take it to God, He will provide. It might be the kind of car that keeps you walking by faith (praying the thing will start each time you get in) but I actually know of cases were people got cars as a result of praying with need.
I have personally seen people's health (mental and physical) changed dramatically as a result of prayer. I also know of cases were such prayers went unanswered. I don't know what makes the difference,  but I am willing to trust that God does and leave it in His hands.
As for prayer just effecting the one praying - No thats just not the case. Praying for others, I think, is the most powerful kind of prayer we can make. I wish we all did more of it.

[Nihilanthic]

I've prayed to god to get those kids out of those blasted programs, or reform them to not hurt them, and get justice for those that hurt the kids, Karen.

Whats the reason to say no to that?

If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
 

--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park

[Anonymous]

to whom are you praying and in what faith?

[Anonymous]

To go even further, if this "god" cared about its people, why would it let this sort of travesty happen? Oh yeah, right. His "plan". Yeah thats a perfect reason. I hope this plan plays out soon cuz this world as we know it is going to be blown to smitherenes by the assholes who run the show. Unless that is the plan. Hmm...
amanda

[miseducated]

On 2005-05-23 14:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"to whom are you praying and in what faith?"

Nihilanthic, this isn't as stupid a question as it first appears to be. Let me give you the lowdown on how to get through to God with a relatively simple request such as yours.

First of all, if you have an issue regarding unemancipated minors, first you have to file form HC-117, declaring your intent to bring such subject matter before God. This form must have the signature on it of seven saints, any seven, it doesn't matter.

The following topics should be handled as follows:
To get the kids out you're going to need form HA-22567, Relocation of the Domicile of a Minor. Use a separate form for each individual, and fill out in triplicate.

To reform a "school" or any kind of institution, you've got to have a form ACH-55487, filled out in duplicate and carrying the signatures of the Presidential Shoe-Shiner and the First Lady's Ass-Kisser. Modify these instructions according to the Nation-State for which you are signed up.

To get justice, you are going to have to clarify your wishes to God using form YT-67235, which covers the subjects of Justice, Revenge, Smiting, Goading, and Stymying. For each form you may choose only one of the five above-mentioned specific requests. This form requires no additional signatures, but you must be very specific about your request, outlining in the greatest possible detail the desired results.

You will find that when these forms are filled out properly and handed to the proper representative of God -- which these days is a man who lives on the San Diego boardwalk who is one of the only living persons with a direct line in to God -- that saying "no" is not only not an option for God, but something he just really doesn't even want to say!

God is waiting for you, Nihilanthic, to develop a close, personal and bureaucratic relationship with him.

[BuzzKill]

//I've prayed to god to get those kids out of those blasted programs, or reform them to not hurt them, and get justice for those that hurt the kids, Karen.

Whats the reason to say no to that?//

Who says He said No?
There is much taking place, and more on the horizon, and you may see your prayer answered. If you do, I would suspect it is b/c of prayer - for many are praying about this. I personally do think it is primarilaly a spiritual battle. I think there is a diabolical intelligence behind the program and those like it. That's why I pray about this - but Niles - why do you?

// To go even further, if this "god" cared about its people, why would it let this sort of travesty happen? Oh yeah, right. His "plan". Yeah that's a perfect reason. I hope this plan plays out soon cuz this world as we know it is going to be blown to smitherenes by the assholes who run the show. Unless that is the plan. Hmm...
amanda //

No Amanda - the tormenting of teen agers is not part of God's plan. You are forgetting about the other powers that be. There is much evil in the hearts of men. Each person decides for themselves how much, or how little, free reign they will give the evil in their hearts. Others often suffer as a result. But without it - you would have no ability to decide for yourself who you want to serve and how you want to live. Its the price of free will.
One thing somewhat related I'd like to note - God is able to take the great evil done by men and turn it into greater good. If we are doing our best to walk in His will, we can trust that He will turn sorrow into Joy. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that says Christians are free of pain or illness, suffering or sorrow - just that He will see us threw it and will Bless us b/c of it, if we remain faithful. And occassionally, we do get miracles.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-23 18:03:00, BuzzKill wrote:

//I've prayed to god to get those kids out of those blasted programs, or reform them to not hurt them, and get justice for those that hurt the kids, Karen.

Whats the reason to say no to that?//

Who says He said No?
There is much taking place, and more on the horizon, and you may see your prayer answered. If you do, I would suspect it is b/c of prayer - for many are praying about this. I personally do think it is primarilaly a spiritual battle. I think there is a diabolical intelligence behind the program and those like it. That's why I pray about this - but Niles - why do you?

I think it's safe to say he's being facetious, Karen. We know people do pray these prayers and they're not immediately, demonstrably answered.

Everything that's happened (anywhere, anytime) is the result of the laws of nature. Intelligence is, evidently, a pervasive part of this universe, even lower critters posess some measure of it. It's all part of the vast and complex equation.

You can take everything you can't see or explain and attribute it to the will of your invisible friend. I do exactly the same. I just don't pretend it's a being who favors me over anybody or anything else.

Not a big difference, really.

You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-23 18:03:00, BuzzKill wrote:

No Amanda - the tormenting of teen agers is not part of God's plan. You are forgetting about the other powers that be.

Wait a second here. I thought this guy was omnipotent? How can anything interfere w/ the plan or will of an omnipotent being?

All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.
--Ambrose Bierce