A cult?

[Nihilanthic]

Buzz, my real issue here with religion is that I have to believe in a lot of people and a lot of writing in order to get to the deity.

I'd MUCH rather cut through all the human bullshit and literary crap (the bible itself is just an amalgamation of works that was canonized at Nicea, not a singular thing!) and believe in something higher.

I dont have faith in human beings at large! I dont have faith in large orginizations not being corrupt!

Now, you can give me stuff from the bible as proof of the bible, but that ultimately becomes circular logic. Its true because it says it is? Uhhh, sorry, that doesnt cut it.

Now, if I look at EXTERNAL evidence, I see things referenced to, and I see that some things did exist. The Romans did exist. Jesus did exist. Noahs flood is currently theorized to be a catastrophic (but not global) flood to have occured either on the euphrates/tigris river, or even in a larger sense, the Black Sea.

The bosporous used to be a portal, basically. The black sea was lower than sea level and the bosporours kept it from filling in so fast it would be at sea level. Well, naturally, if it broke and it filled into the black sea, the flood would have been pretty damn big, and catastrophic for the inhabitants.

So, someone set out with the right equipment and a boat and found out that close to the shore along the black sea, it seems to have been flooded not too long ago (geographically speaking) and to have been suddenly flooded. They also found TONS of artifacts. And, in the time range that they predict that it happened, once abandoned settlements that were far (before the flood) of the black sea were re-settled, which were now, naturally, closer to the now larger black sea.

I cant believe Noah had an arc filled wth animals from the whole 7 continents of the world plus food for each. Its ridiculous. God would have had to intervene and create an extradimensional arc like that Dr. Who's phone booth thingy for it to be possible at all. Plus, the scientific questions of where the water came from (and where it went) are unaswered as well. I suppose that had to appear from a pocket universe and go back into it? Where was the wormhole? Didnt the radiation blast the hell out of anything nearby?

Science, and especially HISTORY can be used with religion, but the problem with looking at something with a scientific perspective (lets look for evidence, and draw a conclusion) versus a religious one (heres my conclusions, lets look for evidence) is that you cant really do it that way. You dont go about having an assuption and finding evidence to support it. Its not how things are done.

But well, I degress. I could take the bible as parable and as stories to learn from, not to necessarily take literally. I dont eat gefilte fish, I dont eat kosher, I wear mixed fabrics, I dont leave town until nightfall if I get semen in my bedsheets and I dont have to destroy anything   a mensturating woman sits on. Yet the bible says so...

I could take it as a story to learn from. I could also take it as a fairy tale. I cant take it literally. Too much of it is ignored or picked-and-chosen from. I also cant 'just believe' by choice. Nobody can. Its as simple as that.

Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.

[Anonymous]

You better get your priorities figured out soon, there isn't much longer. Haven't you seen NBC's new hit 'Revelations?' As far as proof, I think this image provides ample evidence. Jesus has shown himself in the clouds.

[Anonymous]

oops, not to mention...

fish stick jesus


grilled cheese mary


the jesus bruise


and the jesus x ray


got any more 'difficult' questions ?

[Nihilanthic]

*sigh* time to whip out the big guns of reason here. My ammunition? SCRIPTURE!

Lets open with a salvo of unfulfilled prophecy:

(All the following were written nearly 2000 years ago...)
  Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] 'When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes'.
  Matt 16:28: [Jesus said to the disciples], 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom'.
  Mark 9:1: And he [Jesus] said to them [the disciples], 'Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power'.
  Mark 13:30: [After detailing events up to end of world, Jesus says] 'Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place'.
  Mark 14:62: And Jesus said [to the high priest - died 1st cent. AD] 'You will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven'.
  Rom 13:12: The day is at hand.
  1 Cor 7:29: The appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none.
  1 Cor 7:31: For the form of this world is passing away.
  Phil 4:5: The Lord is coming soon.
  1 Thess 4:15: We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord.
  Hebrews 1:2: In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.
  Hebews 10:37: For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry.
  James 5:8: The coming of the Lord is at hand.
  1 Peter 1:20: He [Christ] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times.
  1 Peter 4:7: The end of all things is at hand.
  1 John 2:18: It is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming.
  Rev 1:1: The revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e., the end of the world)...to show to his servants what must soon take place.
  Rev 3:11: [Jesus said] 'I am coming soon'.
  Rev 22:6: And the Lord...has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.
  Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] 'Surely I am coming soon'.

Now, lets get off a potshot of failed omnipotence!

1:19 (Judges 1) And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Ok, so Mechanized forces are impervious to god's powers... that must explain WW2!

And now, how about some contradictions:

God can do anything:
Gen.18:14
    "Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"
Jer.32:17
    "Ah Lord God! ... there is nothing too hard for thee."
Jer.32:27
    "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?"
Mt.19:26, Mk.10:27,
    "With God all things are possible."

God CANT do everything:
Jg.1:19
    "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Mk.6:5
    "And he could there do no mighty work."
Heb.6:18
    "It was impossible for God to lie."

Ok, ready for more? I'll give some links so I dont totally flood this page out.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c ... _name.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/i ... _book.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

There is the main page. But, I'm going to leave on a positive note...

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html

There is good stuf in the bible. The top of good has a random passage from it, one that speaks to me. Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. -- Proverbs 3:27

I have the power of a mind and a conscience. Yet I never had the bible on my mind when I got into this in the first place, except the bewilderment that this could take place if a god existed. However, even the skeptics will admit there is some good in that book. But theres a ton of bullshit in the way. Nobody on this thread who is a total believer can't dodge that anymore.

Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm' target='_new'>Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse

[BuzzKill]

I have a photo taken during the April third Tornado outbreak - back in the seventies - and there looks for all the world to be a Jesus figure in the clouds. And there is a famous example of this kind of thing taken by pilots during WWII. Its interesting, and may be a sign of the times.

Niles, when I say Prophecy Proves you can believe the Bible - I am referring to the fact that the events as described by the prophets have happened, exactly as they said they would.
History proves the Prophets spoke for God. So, you can believe what they say. You need not walk in darkness; for Prophecy is a light shining in a dark place.

The examples are far to numerous to relate.
One example that caught skeptics by surprise is the discovery of Tyre. Skeptics once pointed to Tyre as proof that the Bible was in era. There was not one iota of evidence that this great sea Port spoken of by the Prophet Ezekiel ever existed. Then they found it.

I do not recall the archeologist name - but he wrote of realizing what he had found - Looking over at the fishermen close by, spreading their nets on the rocks to dry - and having the hair on his neck stand up - b/c he remembered Ezekiel 26 vs 3-6.
Turns out Alexander the Great scraped Tyre bare, just as God said would happen; and it became a place for fishermen to dry their nets - just like God said, threw the prophet Ezekiel.

As the anon poster pointed out - the prophecies about Jesus are very numerous. There are in excess of 300 about the first coming (all perfectly fulfilled) and I have read there are more than 700 about the second coming - and I expect they too will be perfectly fulfilled.

In fact - we have lived to see many of the prophecies about the latter days take place. Some one could still debate - like the signs in the sky; but others there is no debate what so ever - Israel is. This too, was thought by scoffers to be proof the Bible was full of non sense.

There is prophecy after Prophecy, about Israel existing and being the center of the world's attention in the latter days. This was considered to be absolutely impossible. No nation in the history of the world had ever been reborn after ceasing to exist. The Jews were scattered would wide and had no real interest in returning to the devastated and dry land they called Zion. Well, you know the history. God said it and He did it - in the face of truly impossible odds!

Another interesting thing - Isaiah spoke of a nation being born before the birth pains - who could think it, he writes , b/c nations are born after the war, the rebellion, not before - yet this was to be how Israel came to be  - a nation would be born and then the birth pains - and this is just what happened - Israel was declared a nation - and then all of the middle east declared war on this new nation, with the intent to drive them into the sea - and they should have not had any trouble doing so. Look at a map. Consider what this infant nation was up against. Yet they prevailed and even gained territory. This should not have been possible. But God means what He says, and so it was.

A seldom quoted prophet explained about another impossible thing God planed to do - which He did - return the language to the people. Zephaniah tells us in chapter 3 vs 9, that when the people return He will give them back their pure language. Israelis today speak Biblical Hebrew - a language that had been long dead, was brought back into common use. This is another thing that has never before been done in the history of the world. But with the new nation having citizens from al over the globe, they needed a common language - and they decided it would be Biblical Hebrew. I just think this is all So cool.

Back to Ezekiel - His words found in chapter 37 are about how a dead Israeli nation, would be brought back to life.

Jeremiah is full of these regathering prophecies; and so is Isaiah, and many others as well.

And what might be the most important point - the prophets put these events in the Latter Days - just prior to the coming of the Lord. Jesus Him self tells us that when we see the fig tree bloom, we should look for His return. Mathew 24 vs 32. This is an example of prophetic symbolism. Israel is the Fig tree. With Prophetic symbols, they remain consistent threw out the Bible. For instance - Jesus is often referred to by the Prophets as the Rock; or the Corner Stone. Oil represents the Holy Sprit. Not black oil - the oil used to make lamps shine.

May your light shine bright.



Real quick Niles - much of what you are posting will happen; and soon is a relitive term. Consider eternity. Now consider a couple thousand years. And time is about up.

John explains the misunderstanding you mention at the top there. Its toward the end of his gospil I think. Check it out. [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-05-06 17:19 ]

[Nihilanthic]

Buzz, you just ignored my whole post! Wow.

I gave a big, long list of unfulfilled prophecies that were imminent... TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO! Now you're telling me NOW is the end times? PLEASE. Hell you ignored my posts from EARLIER. Stop dodging!

The bible says god cant drive people away if they use iron charoits, so wtf do you think would happen if they were in tanks? Gee I dunno :rofl:

Its really, really pathetic. Either admit theres a ton of bullshit and I just called it out, or try to refute it. Stop doging it.

Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
 Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
 been able to determine that for themselves,
 albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
 individuals did not wish to break the law but
 they had no choice.
 

--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee

[BuzzKill]

NO Niles, I am not ignoring your post!

You happened to sneak one in on me, is all.
I did a quick edit just to provide some kind of responce. Your post is rather lenghty and would need a lot of responding.

Do you want to take this off the board?

BTW - are you reading my posts? :wink:

[Nihilanthic]

*sigh*

Playing games and dodging what I've brought up here isnt going to make you 'win' in any way.

Those things, said, did not happen. Period!

You brought up a 'jesus figure in the clouds'. Wow, you saw something in a cloud. Heard of inkblots? You see what you want to.

You keep saying these prophecies prove the bible... WHERE!? You bring up Tyre, etc, but since when did Tyre not exist? Alexander sure as hell took it when he kicked civilizations ass from iberia to india, thats for sure.

Yes, perhaps a while ago, skeptics said tyre didnt exist, and then found that it did exist. Thats good, science works by going by evidence. When it was found, they knew it existed.

However, YOU dont seem to acknowledge when I bring up a ton of unfulfilled prophecies. If you BELIEVE, no amount of evidence contrary to it will convince you otherwise, so I guess I might as well quit posting to this thread. Its really, really immature for you to do this!

But yes, Israel is here, and Tyre was. Congrats! What about all that biblical bull that you just ignore? What about the LOOONNNNGGG list of unfulfilled prophecies? Why do you ignore that?

What about all those stupid rules about women on the rag, or getting semen on your bedsheets, or what to eat or wear, or stoning children, hmm? What about that?

WHY DO YOU IGNORE IT? You understand the absurdities, unfulfilled prophecies, and the contradictions. Ugh. This pointless if youre going to act so childish about this!

 

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist

[BuzzKill]

OK, real quick again -
God is not powerless Niles.
It was Judah who couldn't rout them b/c of the iorn charoits. It was a case of not having faith that God would do something seemingly impossible. Judah lacked faith and so didn't trust God and didn't try to rout them.

Its the same reason Jesus did no miricals amoung those who had no belief.

You do seem interested Niles and if you want to delve as deeply as all this - I do think we should take it off the board.

[BuzzKill]

Look Niles - we are cross posting.
I am not ignoring you.
I am not a whiz bang typist or any kind of expert theologian.
I can not respond to all you wrote with out spending a great deal of time on it. It will require some time and effort and I can't just zoom it out at cha.

And while this thread is somewhat appropriate for this kind of discussion - I think we have gotten to the point of having hijacked it.

I enjoy this kind of debate Niles and have no problem with continuing - but I do think we should take it off the board at this point.

[Nihilanthic]

1:19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Um... ok. Must be grammatical issue then. I'll give it a "either or". But to me, it looks like the LORD was with Judah, and he(LORD) drove out the people on the mountain, but not those in a valley with iron charoits.

However, you're still dodging ALL of the prophecies that I listed that did not come true, Period. Stop it!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c ... ounts.html

What about that, huh?

Lessee... first account is:
Humans were made AFTER the animals, at the same time, (adam and eve).

The second one is:
We were made BEFORE the animals, with eve made from adams rib.

Ok, whats your excuse now? BTW, I still havent forgotten all those things saying the end is at hand and this generation will not die out before the end comes... and yet they did. Why do you continue to dodge that?

Edit: I give up. Believe what you want, but reason and rebuttal is right there, with the bible as source. Just dont think I'm going to let you live it down, or that I support religious anything as a source of policy or treatment of anything, anywhere, at any time.

And for the record, I dont want to be "right", I want to know the truth. People who are "right" but  incorrect are the kind of people I'm out here to fight against. I'm on this forum because I care about kids and find it rather disgusting that abuse goes on. I'm also somewhat ticked that religion, be it mormonism or protestants, is used to prosthetylize or as an excuse to torment children.

"Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." Psalms 82:3-4. I think I'll close on that. I'm not saying the bible is totally full of crap, but there is a lot of i there, it was written by human beings, and what parts are contained was decided... by human beings, who were probably swayed as to what they wanted it to be.

I want to get away from the people and the BS and get with something thats pure. The bible is not pure. What I've said speaks for itself. Now, I'm gonna go play Starcraft. :grin:

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys

--P.J. O'Rourke

[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-05-06 18:12 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-06 06:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So..you will just ignore the facts and stats that say Jesus is who He says He is?  Man has misued religion, God hasn't.  Doing what feels good to you in the name of religion is what gives religion a bad rap.  Ignoring the facts and stats of Jesus are just like ignoring the facts and stats of the abuse that goes on in WWASP.  It won't make it go away no matter how much you want to close your eyes to it.  You've asked the hard questions and came up with answers that work for you.  Isn't that what program parents say and you attack them?"

Nope.  Program parents say there's no right or wrong.

I say there *is* right and wrong, in the form of help and harm, and that the actions of everyone--including any deities that may or may not be out there---is covered by that definition of right and wrong.

It is not doing harm to allow harm to come to someone without making it happen--to simply not intervene.  But affirmatively acting to cause harm, is harm.

But nobody can perfectly avoid all harm unless they do nothing at all and just lay down and die.  So net harm has to be balanced against net help when one acts---but always the measure of harm or help is from the perspective of the sentient person/entity acted upon as a competent adult.

The program people say the ends justify the means.

I *don't*.  While you can't avoid some harms--the lady with only one thing you let in front of you at the grocery store means everyone behind you has to wait longer--allowing indirect harm is different from causing direct harm.  While you can't really avoid some harms, it's much, much more important to avoid doing harm and to pick and choose the good you do so that you do as much good with as little harm as possible.

Just suffice it to say that Wiccan ethical theorists can debate the fine nuances forever.

But in our case the kicker is in the enforcement mechanism--you get what you give, threefold.  You can't be perfect, but you *will* be automatically held responsible for your means as well as your ends.

Program people believe they can cheat.

They believe that if they get the ends they want, it doesn't matter what means they use.  And in the process they cause great harms.  And the Program Parents reap the consequences of their harms when their kids grow up and won't have much, if anything, to do with them.

And I firmly believe that what goes around comes around and that the program owners and managers and the particular staffers doing the harm will get theirs.

I just believe that part of the process is helping the wheels of justice turn on along their merry way.

Program people believe they can cheat, and do harm as a way of getting what they want, and get away with it without taking the natural consequences of the harms they do.  They believe they can dodge their karma.

They aren't the first people I've seen who think they found a dodge, and they won't be the last.  I haven't seen any of the dodges work yet, and I expect I never will.

That you even for a moment would make the mistake of thinking a Wiccan would think the ends justify the means shows your utter ignorance of that which you are criticizing.

To a Wiccan, "the end justifies the means" is one of the ultimate moral obscenities of all time--approaching blasphemy, really.

Timoclea

[BuzzKill]

Ok, I'm back but just for a little bit tonight.
Niles - again, I am not ignoring you. I simply don't have the time just now to spend on an adiquate responce. I only ment to spend a few minutes on line before taking care of my critters and getting a shower after a long day of yard work.
Now, I am really just very tired.
I can hardly get me fingers to hit the proper keys or clearly see the screen.
I will give you a more detailed responce when I can - but it might be a few days. Tomorrow is Derby. Big day roun here. Then Mothers day. Then I am going to have to find time to get some stuff done around this house as it is a dusty cluttered mess. I've let things go in favor of yard work. Still have a lot of yard work. I enjoy it but it wears me out.

Anyway, I don't know that I can do much better than I've done if you aren't willing to consider that from God's perspective He was/is returning soon. All of those prophicies are about the second coming (except at least one rapture verse I noticed) That seems to be your biggest issue. . .

But anyway - I just didn't want you to think I am dodging. Nuthing could be further from the truth. I'll get back to you - soon :wink:

Timocela - Not ignoring you either. We'll "talk" more later.

[bandit1978]

Niles,

It really is pointless to debate these things with Christians.  They really are set in this way, and are not open to change.  

They just need to keep that stuff out of the government, out of the (public) schools, out of doctors' offices and pharmacies.  

It is totally sad how some people are so convinced that we are living in "the last days".  That sort of thinking is very egotistical.  

This "last days" theory is also an excuse for people to continue polluting and destroying the environment.  One politician (okay, I really don't remember which one.  A House representative, I think) *actually said*, when questioned about pollution and shouldn't we try to keep the earth clean for the coming generations,  "I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY MORE GENERATIONS WILL BE HERE BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS".  

These people can make any claims to salvation as they want...it doesn't change the fact that they will reap the repurcusions (whether through karma, or judgement by God, or whatever) for DISRUPTING THE ECOSYSTEM, AND DESTROYING THE EARTH, IT'S ATMOSPHERE, AND THE CREATURES WHO LIVE HERE; basically for failing to respect and live in harmony with the earth and with each other.

[Nihilanthic]

Buzz - I'm willing to consider, if I see some evidence of it. However, I dont see any, sorry. You might as well say its my fault for not considering a WWASPS seminar to be good for me. When you start pulling the same shit they do, I gotta call you on it.

You can believe what you want, but beliefs are best held when there is no evidence, not in SPITE of them.

And this isnt a 'end times' thing, its you saying the bible is proven through predictions. Well, sorry, theres a ton that didnt come true!

WTF are you expecting me to go by evidence wise? And, there still is nothing to say about the bibles self contradictions and explicitly horrible things such as stoning children (why are we on this forum, again?) and stupid laws about food, women on the rag, and spunk in your bedsheets, and just absurd shit like god cant drive out men in iron chariots from valleys.

Now, I'm not against spirituaity or religion. I am very much for people realizing what they are and keeping them in their place - beliefs and only beliefs. You dont set policies based on armageddon's predicted time to occur, or a book that was written by hundreds of people, over hundreds of years, collected and canonized by committe (of people) in Nicea, that contradicts itself, is full of absurdity, clashes with math and science, and perscribes things like stoning children, or said stupid laws about periods, semen, food, and whatnot.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson