A cult?

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-05 18:04:00, shanlea wrote:

"I always had trouble with the Jesus Saves perspective. The idea that the ONLY portal to salvation is through Jesus.  Thus, you can be a total asshole and be saved if you give your heart to Christ; but you will not be saved if you don't--even if you are a loving distributor of good deeds and a good heart. I value justice, and that is NOT just. "

I too, as a young man, post christian, still wasn't clear on my beliefs on a higher power..but I was relatively certain that religions that were not much more than  exclusive afterlife clubs were toxic and dangerous.

I agree, that concept of salvation is really unjust. It damns to hell the vast majority of people who ever lived. What type of omniscient being would do such a horrible thing?

rarely do you hear of such inane cruelty. One has to watch a "hellraiser" flick in order to approach the extreme cruelty doled out by God and Jesus in the bible...nashing of teeth, flesh burning for all of eternity..for merely not believing in a god that if he exists refuses to show himself.  Yet the believers call them loving and forgiving.

Something is really amiss in this whole thing....

[BuzzKill]

// The NKJV, the kinder more gentler translation, eh? //

No Greg - the language has just been brought up to date.
Language and word use changes. As a result, to keep the translation accurate it needs updating from time to time.
This is not changing the meaning - but keeping the meaning intact.

// And then we have the more modern ones that really castrate the intent of the scriptures... //

Yes, there is some of this.  The meaning of the original text is completely disregarded in these cases and it is appalling.

// And what a silly concept, you can violate one of the all important ten commandments of god and not risk your salvation. //

Greg - this statement proves your complete lack of understanding of the Salvation message. We all, break all the commandments, all the time. All are sinners. All who admit this, and who believe Jesus paid the price for their sin, and who call Him Lord and mean it, are forgiven and acquitted and will never face the second death.  This doesn't mean one can live a sinful life with no regard for right and wrong. That is evil; and to call oneself Christian and live that way is doubly evil. The Christian is to strive to live as Christ Like a life as they can - and it is generally a gradual process. This is were calling Him Lord comes in. But the point here is, people are always going to make mistakes, and sin,  in thought, word and deed - no matter how hard they try not to. There is no way for a person to live a sinless life; and so all fall short and miss the mark. God Himself, b/c He loves us so, paid the price we can never pay for ourselves, and all we have to do is thank Him and accept it and be reconciled to Him. Or not. He lets us decide for ourselves if we want to call Him Lord and Savior.

When I say what one believes about the 'do not murder' commandment is not a salvation issue, I mean just that. Your salvation has nothing to do with this. Your degree of reward in Heaven might - but not your salvation. Your salvation depends on what you believe about Jesus Christ.

As for you 'war time murder' comment - I wasn't talking about scripture. I was talking about world history and culture. Except for war crimes perpetrated upon civilians; we do not charge people with murder when they shoot others in war. This kind of killing isn't considered murder. There are those who disagree. I did mention that.
I think God recognizes that men in general have little choice in the matter, when it comes to war. I think, quit possibly, it is the leaders who take men into war who will be held accountable for the mayhem, and especially so, if it is an unjust war. But that is just my personal opinion.

// Believing in Jesus is a ticket to easy street in this country. //

You have a point. It does help, in this country, if a person claims to be Christian of some sort in various circumstances - but I assure you, it is difficult to actually live a Christian life, and not be censured and ridiculed. Our culture in general is post Christian, just as is Europe, tho to a lesser degree. As a result, you have a lot of folks who want to evoke Christ's name, but who shun His message. He speaks of these folks in Matthew 7vs21-23.
However, in large parts of the world it is very dangerous to be Christian, and the persecution of the Saints across the world in general is growing.

// "Thou shall not have any other Gods before me"
Is this an admission that there are other gods? //

No Greg. But men do worship many other gods, anyway. He is telling His people not to do this. It is the sin of idolatry.

// "I, The lord your God, am a jealous god"
Could this be true, that an omniscient being is really jealous? Or is it more likely we created him in our own image? //

Its true that God does not want His people following after idols. It does anger Him, and its what we best understand as jealously.
Threw out the scriptures His idolatrous people are depicted as harlots. His feelings and thoughts on the matter are explained as that of a husband with an unfaithful wife. I think, rather than (as you suggest) we made Him in our image; He has explained Himself in a way that we can understand.

// "visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the four fourth generations of those who hate Me"
Could it really be all the bad luck you have had in your life was due to your great great great grandfather's relationship with god? Is this what a loving god would do? //

I think (just my opinion) that this is a warning that living an evil life will have consequences down threw the generations. They will not have the protection and blessing of those who are Faithful; and the consequences of their iniquity will be long lasting. Consider what we know today about how abused children grow to abuse their children - the vicious circle of abuse and poverty that results. I think this is the kind of thing he was warning against. If a person is living according to God's law, then he won't be doing the kinds of things that destroy children, and children's children.  

// "but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male servant or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you"
This one is very interesting. Wouldn't god just take the opportunity here to tell you slavery was wrong instead of instructing you how to make your slave behave? //

I don't think this is about slavery. Remember - the people who He gave these laws to had just left slavery behind in Egypt. I think this is more about no one having to work on the Sabbath - not even your servant - which could be a slave - or a hired worker. You give them this day off.  Slavery, I think, is one of those things that were always a part of society, and the scriptures that speak of how to treat slaves was in recognition of this fact of life. No where is slavery spoken of as the will of God. Nor is it forbidden. It was treated as a fact of life with standards of decency and care commanded.  I don't know why slavery was not forbidden. I can only think, that for some reason I don't understand, the question of slavery, was to be left up to the society and culture of the people to decide for themselves.
I am sure that those who were slaves will have the highest seats of honor in Heaven; for those who were the least will be the greatest - those who were last, first.  We are all called to have servants hearts and to be servants to those in need.

// "you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Would a lord god really lump your neighbor's wife in among his ox, donkey, slave, and all other property of the neighbor? //

Why not? I think in terms of my neighbor's wife; his dog; his car; his boat; his pool - They are all his and not mine. I am not to want what is my neighbors. I am to be satisfied and grateful for what I have been blessed with - not always wanting what others have. I have no problem with this.

// This is not a god, the god of the old testament, that I would want anything to do with...anymore than I would be interested in the god of the Koran. //

And this is your right and privilege.

[Anonymous]

Greg - this statement proves your complete lack of understanding of the Salvation message.

I proves no such thing. I understand it completely. I just reject the notion outright. The Salvation "message" just makes your religion an exclusive club based on thought stopping exercises, and no thanks, I was already a member of one of those when I was a teenager.

Thanks anyway.


Gregfl

[GregFL]

"When I say what one believes about the 'do not murder' commandment is not a salvation issue, I mean just that. Your salvation has nothing to do with this. Your degree of reward in Heaven might - but not your salvation. Your salvation depends on what you believe about Jesus Christ. "


So, ted bundy, who admitted to seriel murder and also professed to be saved prior to his death sentence, gets to go to heaven. He justs gets a smaller house?  Maybe a house of silver instead of gold?


Com'n!!!

[GregFL]

Our culture is post christian?


Buzzkill, I have to respond one at a time, because your writings are just so offbase!  This statement alone is incredibly naive.

[GregFL]

Buzzkill, you just justify everything and rename even god's word.

"he didn't mean jealous, he meant angry".


Give me a break. You twist everything to make it more palable.

even when you twist it, omniscience and anger do not go hand and hand.

Slavery is well mentioned in the bible and condoned by god. Calling a man servent something else is dishonest, and I think you know this.

Goodnight, this is just more of the same. You refuse, outright refuse, to do anything but justify and weasel out of the tough stuff.

[BuzzKill]

Not what I said Greg.

Short on time this am and not wanting to go over and over things anyway - but thats not what I siad.

Ted Bundy? I doubt he is saved. I doubt he was capible of repentence. But I don't get to dicide that. God alone gets to weigh Bundy's soul and judge if he is justified.

It is possible to be a great sinner and to repent and be saved. I simply doubt this is the case with Ted Bundy. I don't think he was remorsful and I think he would have loved to be able to kill some more - but I can't know that. However God does - no matter what the man says, God knows every secret of his heart.

[BuzzKill]

I'm not trying to twist anything Greg. I'm sorry you feel that way. I am only trying to give a Christian perspective on the things you question. I don't expect you, or even most people, to agree with that perspective. I am in most cases telling you what I think - and I could be wrong - I have said over and over I am no theologian. Not that I agree with the theologians as they seem to be very free and loose with scripture these days.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-06-06 07:00:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"Not what I said Greg.



Short on time this am and not wanting to go over and over things anyway - but thats not what I siad.

It's not?  Here is your quote...

"Its true that God does not want His people following after idols. It does anger Him, and its what we best understand as jealously. "


buzzkill....please.  You ability to carry on a cohesive conversation is low.




GregFL

[Anonymous]

_______________________________________________
Quote by Buzzkill:I don't think this is about slavery. Remember - the people who He gave these laws to had just left slavery behind in Egypt. I think this is more about no one having to work on the Sabbath - not even your servant - which could be a slave - or a hired worker. You give them this day off. Slavery, I think, is one of those things that were always a part of society, and the scriptures that speak of how to treat slaves was in recognition of this fact of life. No where is slavery spoken of as the will of God. Nor is it forbidden. It was treated as a fact of life with standards of decency and care commanded. I don't know why slavery was not forbidden. I can only think, that for some reason I don't understand, the question of slavery, was to be left up to the society and culture of the people to decide for themselves.
I am sure that those who were slaves will have the highest seats of honor in Heaven; for those who were the least will be the greatest - those who were last, first. We are all called to have servants hearts and to be servants to those in need.
________________________________________________


How about the scriptures were written by self serving men that condoned slavery? I have found the bible to be one of the most hateful readings in my life. I don't believe we have a God that would drown everyone on purpose because he's angry, nor do I believe he "sent fire from the sky" to punish someone for homosexual acts. The God I worship is a loving and forgiving God, not one that enjoys vengenance.

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-06 07:49:00, Anonymous wrote:



How about the scriptures were written by self serving men that condoned slavery? I have found the bible to be one of the most hateful readings in my life. I don't believe we have a God that would drown everyone on purpose because he's angry, nor do I believe he "sent fire from the sky" to punish someone for homosexual acts. The God I worship is a loving and forgiving God, not one that enjoys vengenance."

Anon, I agree wholeheartedly. Buzzkill's post above is more revisionist wishfull thinking, as usual. She says "No where is slavery spoken of as the will of God."

Once again the onerous is on me to correct her and then watch her backpedal.

Okay, Slavery as the will of god....

here god BLesses abraham by giving him lots of slaves...
_________
"And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses."
__________


Here he blesses Isaac with many slaves....

____________
"Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him.  
 And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great:  
For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants: and the Philistines envied him."
____________


Here god instructs you on how to sell your daughter as a slave...

___________
"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.  
___________


God tell you how to buy a hebrew slave and tell you after seven years, you gotta let him go, but hey, you get TO KEEP THE WIFE AND KIDS!

__________
 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. You can buy one, but you must set him free on the seventh year.  If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.  
 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."
____________


If the hebrew slave refuses to leave his wife and children, you are to thrust an aul thru his ear and he is yours forever...

_________

" And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:   Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.  


Here are instruction for selling a thief into slavery to pay for what he stole (if you don't kill him on the first day)...

_____________
"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.   If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."
___________


Here god tells you to buy some heathens in your neighborhood, and you get to keep them and even pass them and their offspring down to your children...at least if you are Hebrew, you get off after seven years...but of course without your kids...

_________
"Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.  And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever"
__________


Here god instructs on how to make slaves out of  people captured in war....

____________
"When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee."
___________


There is much much more in the bible that condones and even demands slavery.  Buzzkill isn't in this conversation to be honest. She is out to justify her foregone conclusion, that the god of the bible is "good".

This is just not true. If there is a god, and he resembles this guy, he is a  monster.

[GregFL]

No discussion of slavery in the old testament is complete without Exodus, chapter 21, vs 20-21 and vs 26 27.

Here god tells you that if you beat your slave to death, you will be punished. But if he lives at least two days, you will not be punished because after all, HE IS YOUR PROPERTY. I guess a slow painfull beating to death is okay...as long as it takes a couple days...


 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.  
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."


and then, if you do beat them so hard you poke out their eye, or knock a tooth out, well then, your punishment is...You gotta let them go.  Isn't that just terrible!!!!

 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.   And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."


Yep Buzzkill,and as you say his rules on slavery are..How did you put it?

Oh yeah....

 "It was treated as a fact of life with standards of decency and care commanded."

You really believe this?

[BuzzKill]

Do I believe what I wrote?
Yeah, I do.
I did and do admit there are things I don't understand and do wonder about. This is one of those things. But recognizing that God is God, I trust that He knows what He's doing.

I don't know why there wasn't simply a declaration that slavery was to be abolished. I can make guesses about it, but a guess is all it would be.
 
As for the rules concerning servants - My thinking is that having these rules is a great improvement from having none. Prior to the law being given, there were no rules on these issues at all, and each man did what seemed right to him - and often that was none to right.

Standards of fairness and decency were set - and while them may seem archaic and brutal by our standards, they were extremely generous and compassionate by the standards of the people living in that day and time. And Far, Far more decent and generous than the way slavery was practiced by the American South for hundreds of years; or anywhere else in the world, ever, for that matter.

I don't think Slavery was ever the will of God for men; although he never forbid it (and I don't know why) No where can I find that He ordered it.

BTW -I can't find where God promised Abraham to bless him with servants. He made many promises to Abraham, which He kept - but I can find no reference to giving Him an abundance of slaves.
Can you tell me were you got this? There are other verses I have asked you to provide, if you don't mind.

It does seem that God has a perspective on slavery very different from modern sensibilities. It does seem as if He is leaving the question up to society and culture to determine - and I assume He has good reason, weather or not I am able to understand it.

[GregFL]

"I did and do admit there are things I don't understand and do wonder about."

There is nothing to wonder about. God orders the enslavement of people in the old testament, orders disfiguring them, lets you beat them, and even sell your own daughters.

"As for the rules concerning servants - My thinking is that having these rules is a great improvement from having none."

So beating them to death but giving them a two day window for wiggle room is better then nothing, eh?

This is your definition of a just and fair god?


Once presented with the error of this statement

"No where is slavery spoken of as the will of God."


you go from this...

"It was treated as a fact of life with standards of decency and care commanded."

to this.....

"Standards of fairness and decency were set - and while them may seem archaic and brutal by our standards, they were extremely generous and compassionate by the standards of the people living in that day and time."

When presented with obvious glaring, outragous conduct of god in the context of slavery.


backpedal, backpedal, backpedal....


You are as predictable as an atomic clock.

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-06 10:05:00, BuzzKill wrote:

I can't find where God promised Abraham to bless him with servants. He made many promises to Abraham, which He kept - but I can find no reference to giving Him an abundance of slaves.

Can you tell me were you got this? There are other verses I have asked you to provide, if you don't mind.

Genesis 24:35

 "And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses."

It does seem that God has a perspective on slavery very different from modern sensibilities. It does seem as if He is leaving the question up to society and culture to determine - and I assume He has good reason, weather or not I am able to understand it.

No, it has been pointed out to you that god ORDERED people to take slaves in the bible, that god INSTRUCTED men on how to enslave captured peoples, god Instructed people on what children they owned by birthright, instructed his people on how to even drive an aur thru the ear and mark your slave,  and on and on.

You don't "understand" because that is your escape clause to keep you from facing up to this stuff. The elephant in the room is that the God of the bible is not a nice guy, and in order to avoid that obvious conclusion, you bail to "I am not able to understand".  

You do understand Buzzkill. the conclusion is something is amiss with the bible, and especially the old testament, but this is not acceptable to you because you are working from a conclusion and not really open to exploring the text of the bible. Yet you post here in order to prothelize. I think that is a mistake.


Yes, you understand Buzzkill. You are smart enough to really get that The bible is an ancient fable, written by ancient men who kept slaves, sold their daughters, murdered babies and raped women, and  killed people for minor things like stealing, and they wrote a religious book to justify their actions.

The conclusion is obvious. The Bible is authored by men, not God. No omniscient being would inspire such a hate filled, violent book.

Whether you will face up to this or not is in your hands. You can still be a christian and accept the truth.