A cult?

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-05 08:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If I took a piss on the bible, would I go to hell?"

I suppose that depends on whether you believe in the bible or not, and also depends on which bible you chose to desecrate (christian or muslim).

Where are you stationed?

 :grin:

[Anonymous]

Guantanamo, how'd you guess!  :wink:

[Anonymous]

Okay, okay.. I have a serious question now. Is it okay to kill people in war from a strictly Christian standpoint?

It seems in war, both sides really cling to religion, but from a strict interpretation of the text.. isn't murder not very 'kosher', on both sides?

How do they go about justifying this? Shouldn't the army chaplains be telling the troops not to kill?

I also notice the hardcore peace activists are usually religious, but then so are a lot of the pro-war people. Its strange..

Thanks in advance  ::

[BuzzKill]

Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

The Old Testament God, is God, and Jesus was clear about the relationship they shared. There is no reason or excuse to doubt Jesus claim to His place in the Trinity. If you disbelieve this, then you are not Christian - but rather a new world order believer who teaches a false Christ.
Jesus is very compassionate and tolerant - but also very clear: He is the Way, the Truth and The Life and no one can be saved from death and judgment apart from Him. When you consider the price He paid so you might escape death and judgment, you might begin to understand just how patient, kind and compassionate God is.

Following is a link to an article on who Jesus says He is.

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/doctrinal/CD/CD-05.php

[GregFL]

thousands of Jews were crucified during the time of christ.

Tell me, why was his death any different, presuming he existed, than these other jews?  

In addition, if his message was peace, and the god he represented message was war, death, dismemberment, rage and punishment, how is it he is "fullfilling" anything?

by the way, I said that very thing "jesus came to fullfill" earlier in this thread and you dismissed it offhand, citing a semantical difference.  What gives you the right of special interpretation to these words?

And if as you suggest, the old testament God is god, then no thank you, I will take my chances with either no god or some other god...that guy is a bloody killer!

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-05 09:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Okay, okay.. I have a serious question now. Is it okay to kill people in war from a strictly Christian standpoint?



It seems in war, both sides really cling to religion, but from a strict interpretation of the text.. isn't murder not very 'kosher', on both sides?



How do they go about justifying this?   :: "

This is reprenstative of the "wiggle room" many christians, and especially fundies, claim.

First you hear them waxing philosophically about the ten commandments, talking about how strict, how important, how serious, etc these commandments are.

One of them is "thou shall not kill". There is no special circumstance, it merely says "Thou shall not kill".

The fundies are also usually the first to endorse the death penalty and war, often citing other sections of the bible.  

Go figure.

To me the commandments are over simplistic and present their own set of moral problems in situational instances. How does "tho shall not kill" work when someone is attacking your family and leaving you a choice between killing them or them killing you and your family?  Which is more moral, stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving child or letting her starve to death? Does "tho shall not steal" overshadow letting someone die of starvation?



The ten commandments .....Don't work in real world moral choices.

[GregFL]

Interesting link by the way Buzzkill. Other than the thinly vieled attacks against anyone that questions or critises the bible, it boldy asks "Jesus, myth or reality" and then  merely uses the bible to prove the bible.

yawn.

[GregFL]

On 2005-06-05 09:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

Is it okay to kill people in war from a strictly Christian standpoint?



It seems in war, both sides really cling to religion, but from a strict interpretation of the text.. isn't murder not very 'kosher', on both sides?




Thanks in advance  :: "

Well, well, well. First, it depends on what text you are reading. The christian old testament? It is repleat with instructions on killing your enemy, killing the children (happy is he who dasheth the little ones against thy stones), and kidnapping and raping the surviving women, stoning people to death for working on the sabbath,a prophet of god cursing 40 children in the name of god and then immediately two bears mauling them all to death.  Murder is a fact of life in the old testament, but remember "tho shall not kill".  Kind of contradictory, eh?

The Koran? There are instructions on killing all infidels. The entire book glorifies murder and war.

[Anonymous]

Certainly helps put todays events into context, thanks for the info!  :grin:

[BuzzKill]

The link wasn't meant for you Greg. I know how you feel about it. And you know how I feel - the Bible provides excellent validation for itself.

Thou shall not kill - this is (as you point out) one of the areas where Christians disagree. Many believe it means no life is ever to be taken and they oppose the taking of any life under any circumstances. In war, they would be the conscientious objectors. They would oppose the death penalty.

Others believe that the more correct translation would be 'you shall not murder' - and my NKJV does read that way. These people point out, that not all killing is murder. It is recognized by all of history and most cultures that taking life in a time of war is not murder. Likewise these people often justify the death penalty by believing it is necessary to equate to justice in some case where murder has taken place under especially heinous conditions.

This is one of those issues, that while important and well worth debate - it is not a salvation issue. In other words - you can hold to either point of view, or sit the fence, and your salvation is not at risk.

However - the other issue - Who Jesus is - IS a salvation issue. What side you are on there, determines your eternal state.

I know you don't believe this Greg. I don't expect to change your mind. My concern here, is for the person who says they believe in Jesus, but then goes on to describe a false Christ. They might want to look into What Jesus said about Himself - and what the Bible says about Him - as we have no other trustworthy source of information.

All else is what people imagine ought to be; or what they wish was; what they feel is right. It is usually an attempt to bring God down to man's level - to make God no more than a glorified man - or to make God nothing more than a "force" for men to channel. This allows a person to say they believe (which they imagine is enough; as if they are doing God a favor believing in Him at all) but to avoid the censure and hostility that comes from believing in Jesus as He presents Himself; and as He is described in every Christian Creed. The World is OK with a make believe Jesus; but the Real Jesus - He is not so well accepted. Not by the world.

Any christ, other than the Christ of scripture, is a false christ, and there are many of those. Following them, leads not to salvation, but to death and judgment. And so, it is very important that this be pointed out to anyone flirting with false ideas about who Jesus is.

For anyone wanting to look up The Ten Commandments, they are found in Exodus, chapter 20.

[GregFL]

This is one of those issues, that while important and well worth debate - it is not a salvation issue. In other words - you can hold to either point of view, or sit the fence, and your salvation is not at risk.

The NKJV, the kinder more gentler translation, eh?

And then we have the more modern ones that really castrate the intent of the scriptures...

And what a silly concept, you can violate one of the all important ten commandments of god and not risk your salvation.

The only religion that would believe such a trite concept is one that says you only need accept a god in your heart, and you can do this after a murderious raping spree, and still go to heaven.

Oops!

 :eek:

[GregFL]

Taking a life in the time of war is Not murder?

Link me to the new testament scripture that says this.

Talk about wiggle room!!!!!

  Who talks to god and makes sure he agrees with the war? Is both sides getting a "don't worry about murder..get out of hell free card" the minute some political person signs the war declaration? What about before war is declared..a military action like say vietman or the first Gulf war which really weren't wars? Is it okay to kill just soldiers, or is killing the women and children okay as well?

Tell me oh wise interpreter of the bible...is this murder?


http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... -tab-web-t


Buzzkill, you are amazing.

[GregFL]

.... but to avoid the censure and hostility that comes from believing in Jesus as He presents Himself;

Oh Puleeese!

Believing in Jesus is a ticket to easy street in this country.  Give yourself a slap on the face.

Try being a muslim, a wiccan, or an atheist in this country and you will understand what censure and hostility really is.

You are amazingly distorted in your perception of reality.

[GregFL]

For anyone wanting to look up The Ten Commandments, they are found in Exodus, chapter 20

or here...


http://www.tencommandments.org/

You may notice some, er...unpleasantness in this interpretation of the ten commandments and its application to modern day man.

You may also notice some unusual quotes and traits that God assigns to himself in this passage...

"Thou shall not have any other Gods before me"

Is this an admission that there are other gods?

"I, The lord your God, am a jealous god"

Could this be true, that an omniscient being is really jealous? Or is it more likely we created him in our own image?

"visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the four fourth generations of those who hate Me"

Could it really be all the bad luck you have had in your life was due to your great great great grandfather's relationship with god?  Is this what a loving god would do?

"but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male servant or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you"

This one is very interesting.  Wouldn't god just take the opportunity here to tell you slavery was wrong instead of instructing you how to make your slave behave?

"you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


Would a lord god really lump your neighbor's wife in among his ox, donkey, slave, and all other property of the neighbor?  


This is not a god, the god of the old testament, that I would want anything to do with...anymore than I would be interested in the god of the Koran.

[shanlea]

I always had trouble with the Jesus Saves perspective. The idea that the ONLY portal to salvation is through Jesus.  Thus, you can be a total asshole and be saved if you give your heart to Christ; but you will not be saved if you don't--even if you are a loving distributor of good deeds and a good heart. I value justice, and that is NOT just.