I'm Curious

[Antigen]

"But you did take a real chance."

So do you, couple of times every month and with other people's kids.

These people trust you. They believe you. They have no doubt that the devil that they don't know is better than the one they do.

But the reality is that when you put a kid in a coercive behavior mod program, there's a far higher than average chance they may die of exposure, positional asphyxiation, heat exhaustion, untreated illness or other complications of the methods used there. You also raise the chances that they'll run away under circumstances that this same kid would never be exposed to or consider otherwise (like, for example, trecking accross 40 miles of badlands or running in a foreign country). Or that they'll run and, this time, they really, really mean it! They're not just upset and run to a friend's house for a couple of weeks till they cool off. They'll be scared to ever let themselves be found till they reach the age of majority.

Even if all goes "well", according to the vast majority of people who've graduated more than a couple of years ago, there's damned near a 100% chance of their suffering some psyche injury, like PTSD and major social problems.

And if you ask them about these unwanted side effects, all they'll tell you is that they make no guarantees. Lots of promises, very little info. to back them up and no guarantees at all.

The Program always promises that, after 'treatment', your kid and your relationship with them will never be the same. Judging by some of the personalities in these forums, I believe them.
 

Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence

[Deborah]

Perri,
I understand your feelings toward the program. What I want to say to you, is that there was nothing magical or miraculous about what the program did. They are not saints. Any parent could do for their child exactly what the program does, given the desire and inclination.
I posted some tips on that a while back, rather than reiterate:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10

Why do you think your parents didn't invest that time in helping you? Too busy with their own lives? Ignorant? Indifferent?

And by all means, don't interpret this to mean that I, in any way, support the methods used by the program. In fact most of society would not condone their behaviors if they were made known. A parent would be stripped of their rights if they committed the same attrocities.[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-01-03 10:11 ]

[Deborah]

***I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail. I commend you for doing what you did, it probbably was just as hard a decision for you to let her go as it would have been to send her away. But you did take a real chance.

OWC,
Would you please provide this public forum with the statistics that support your fear and hysteria? I understand you're attached to your livlihood and all, but jeez louise.
The world is fraught with potential dangers. The solution is not to put kids in bubbles. The overwhelming majority do just fine. And many who attend programs come out in much worse shape. PTSD. Totally ill prepared for life in the real world. Unfortuantely, we won't have the stats on the true efficacy (or lack) of programs for a while, if ever. Because no one wants to put them under the microscope for a closer look.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-03 10:28:00, Deborah wrote:

"***I hope you do relize how lucky you were that she did not die or end up in jail. I commend you for doing what you did, it probbably was just as hard a decision for you to let her go as it would have been to send her away. But you did take a real chance.



OWC,

Would you please provide this public forum with the statistics that support your fear and hysteria? I understand you're attached to your livlihood and all, but jeez louise.

The world is fraught with potential dangers. The solution is not to put kids in bubbles. The overwhelming majority do just fine. And many who attend programs come out in much worse shape. PTSD. Totally ill prepared for life in the real world. Unfortuantely, we won't have the stats on the true efficacy (or lack) of programs for a while, if ever. Because no one wants to put them under the microscope for a closer look.

"

:tup:  :tup:  :tup:

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Fuck stats they mean nothing. The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life. It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools, but there are plenty more kids out there either dead or in jail, or not even one of those but some that went on such a downward spiral and did not get any help and are now soem of the bottom crust of society. All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else. So it is not just death and jail. It could be a life of despair. If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.
The one that cares

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-01-03 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Fuck stats they mean nothing. The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life. It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools, but there are plenty more kids out there either dead or in jail, or not even one of those but some that went on such a downward spiral and did not get any help and are now soem of the bottom crust of society. All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else. So it is not just death and jail. It could be a life of despair. If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.

The one that cares"

So, first "Fuck stats they mean nothing"

*THEN*

you go off spouting how its unfortunate that there were deatsh and suicides in the programs, but if they werent in the program, they are GUARANTEED to be "dead or in jail".

You just contradicted yourself. :wstupid:

If the stats mean nothing how the hell do you KNOW they're going to end up in the bottom crust of society? Clairvoyance? Arrogance? Or were you told to believe it at DeSisto and by the programs you work for now?

"Life of despair"? Tell that the people living one IN the program.

YOU are the one not facing reality. Kids grew up just fine without torture camps. Why do we need them now, despite the facts that problems with kids have been on the decline for about a decade?

The only thing going up is fearmongering and profits.

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'> Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-03 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Fuck stats they mean nothing.

Except when you spout them off arbitrarily with no evidence to back it up.

 

The truth is this parent did play russian roulete with the childs life.

Amazing how you can make such a judgement off of one post that I made on some forum.  Do you use the powers of deduction when dealing with the kids you kidnap and incarcerate?

 

It is sad that there have been deaths and suicides at some of these schools,

It's much more than sad there buddy boy, it's both tragic and criminal.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=34164

 

All will not die, but will end up homeless and on the street hooking or whatever else.

Are you seriously saying this about ALL??  Really ALL would end up hooking or homeless?

 

If you don;t think this parent was lucky, the you are just convincing me more and more of your not facing reality.

The one that cares"

It was much more than luck.  Life kicked her ass for a little while.  She learned on her own what  the NA meetings that her dad forced her to go to couldn't teach her.

[Anonymous]

Sure the majoruty of the kids do fine and that is why there are very few kids that get sent away % wise. Any thing i spout off about percentages is as i said what i have seen. I was one kid of 4 kids at my high school that got sent away that i know off and the school had 2000 kids. Sure if your kid is doing things similar to the child in the post earlier, by all means let them have thier freedom to do what they want. That's real responsible parenting. I believe it's called giving up. Which is what that parent did and wow now she is a wonderful girl with a scholorship. Who still drinks and smokes pot now and then. Not all are so lucky!
When you 20 year old live a lot longer i will show you some respect. I again am sorry if you went through something bad at one of these schools, but you are here alive. Even though you have so much anger still. You need therapy, just my opinion.Allot of you are in need.
The one that is getting very tired of this BS

[Anonymous]

No not all, there are many who surive,but with many scars. The one that cares

[Deborah]

No one lives an authentic life and comes out unscathed. That's how nature intended us to learn. You are one of the most anxious programmies that has posted here. If not anxious then desperately protecting your livlihood. Relax. It is highly unlikely that you will ever reach agreement with activists here. It ain't going to happen. And if you can't take the heat, then you'll just have to leave the kitchen.

[Nihilanthic]

1. Your opinion means exactly jack shit

2. I was never in such a place

3. The only thing you are good at is kidnapping children. Period. Kiss my ass! You're an expert in criminal behavior in any other circumstance. Go get a job for the mob.

4. Programs are NOT NECESSARY. PEOPLE CAN GROW UP WITHOUT THEM.

WE HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, DUMBASS.

They dont even DO anything but make them comply with the program or face torture in some form or another, and throw them in those BS seminars that mentally break them down so they adhere to whatever dogma they want to beat into them.

Thats not fixing anything. You might as well send kids to a program for a cold. The cold will go away and the kid comes out grown up, but the program didnt really do either. They grew up and got rid of their cold on their own.

P.S. You still use the spelling and grammar of a 12 year old. And its not "BS" when there are accusations of abuse for the past 25+ years that all match up, from people who went to all kinds of programs for all kinds of reasons, or none at all.

Its called valid suspicion. Thousands of people dont tell the same lie for 25 years from hundreds to thousands of programs, having been sent there for all kinds of reasons.

Sure, a 'manipulator' might lie, but what about kids going in for treatment of eating disorders, depression, PTSD, or whatnot? Why is it *EVERYONE* going into those programs are automatically callied liars?

You're not going to answer a SINGLE fucking thing I said in this post, "one who cares".

Go back to your job of kidnapping kids and leaving them with these shady programs where nobody knows what goes on inside, yet they allow cameras inside PRISONS all the damn time!

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

[Anonymous]

You sure do make a lot of judgements about situations and people you know very little about.  I've given some peripheral details about my life and instead of asking questions to try and get a better understanding of the situation so that we could have a more intelligent debate about it (whew...sorry for the run-on) you spout off snap judgements.  You have about .01% of the facts in this particular case yet you feel completely qualified to do that?  

You can dress this up any way you want.  You can say it's all for their own good, that they would be deadinsaneorinjail or whatever other fucking cliches and slogans you want to throw around.  You kidnap kids for a living.  You undermine any sense of self that they have.  You 'rewire' them to the program's designs.  You will never understand the sheer psychological rape and murder that goes on in these places.  You will never understand how long lasting the effects are.  No matter what.  You haven't been there, you don't know.  I've been on BOTH sides of the fence.

Thank GOD I didn't turn to someone like you for help.  My kid would have ended up in one of those places and she would have had to deal with the fall-out for the rest of her life.  This is a kid who supports herself, contributes to society, is getting her education and understands that she is fully in control of her life.  Her choices determine her path.  I never[/b] gave up on her.  Quite the contrary, I always had faith in her.  I gave up on the program dogma that's been shoved in my head for the last 20 years or so.  It's funny, when I tell this to program people it's almost like they're upset to hear she's not in the streets somewhere.  This is a person who was told (by AA/program people) that she was going to die or be a hooker on the streets.  It's almost like she's pissed them off by proving them wrong.  PROTECT THE DOGMA AT ALL COSTS!!!!! :roll: Can't have these parents thinking they don't actually need us.  

That being said, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be places for kids with severe emotional or psychological illness or someplace to put truly violent people, but... 1. that's not what we're talking about here and 2. even those kids need to be someplace where there are true[/b] professionals.  Not these pseudo-counselors.

[Anonymous]

This is the same kind of mentality.  He was faking it, it's the kids fault, they're out of control, they're manipulative.


http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... aynes.html

The kids say that after several hours in the sun, Anthony began to hallucinate. "He said he saw Indians and water," says Allen. He was also eating dirt. By sundown, they say Anthony had gotten worse. "He was passed out. His face was just pale," says Russell.


But Colonel Long says Haynes was faking his sickness. "I've seen Anthony do the very same thing before," he says. Long believes Anthony was pretending again because he wanted to go home. The staff was told to put Anthony in a pickup truck along with other kids on their way to take a shower.


"Anthony was sitting up, with his eyes squinting, " says Long. "And I said, 'Anthony, do you want to go home?' And he'd open one eye. And he'd look at me. 'I just wanna go home, Colonel.' And he shut 'em back down"


"He didn't say that!" says Russell. "He would never say that."


"Colonel has a golden tongue," says Angel. "He tries to say things that kind of fit in."


Sirveorge Jones and another instructor took Anthony to a nearby motel room.


The staff put Anthony in the bathtub, turned on the shower, and reportedly left him alone for five to ten minutes. When they returned, according to some witnesses, the 14-year-old was facedown in the water and barely responsive. One of the instructors claimed he was concerned about Anthony's condition and called Long.


"There was nothing in the conversation that I had to be concerned about," says Long.


Despite that call, Long was still convinced Anthony was faking, and ordered his staff to bring Anthony back to camp. That's where Colonel Long finally got concerned and tried to revive Anthony.


At 9:43 p.m., Long's wife called 911. At this point, Anthony Haynes was not breathing.


Anthony was airlifted to the hospital. In Phoenix, his mother's phone rang. she rushed to the hospital, where doctors told her that her son had died.


An autopsy said the cause of death was "complications of near drowning and dehydration due to heat exposure." But the medical examiner called the death an accident.


Long still believes Anthony was trying to go home. "I think Anthony wanted to get himself sick, and sick to the point whereby he would get himself out," he says.


Maricopa County sheriff Joe Arpaio shut down the camp. His detectives started investigating Anthony's death and Colonel Long. "This was a kid that died under a very, very strange situation," Arpaio says.


Long doesn't believe he was responsible for Anthony's death. "Do I feel bad that I didn't take him home alive to his parents? Yeah, I feel bad about that," he says. "So bad that you will never, ever understand how bad I feel. Am I responsible? I didn't kill Anthony."

[Perrigaud]

Well, again people are making me out to be all about the program. I DON'T THINK IT'S A SOLUTION OR A CURE. IT'S NOT. I TOOK WHAT I NEEDED LEFT WHAT I DIDN'T. IT HELPED. I DECIDED TO MAKE A CHANGE. MY PARENTS ARE NOT PERFECT THEY DID ALL THEY COULD. I WASN'T GOING TO LISTEN TO THEM, THEIR RULES, THEIR MORALS, THE PUNISHMENTS, THE GROUNDINGS, OR THEIR INTERVENTIONS.

[Anonymous]

You have proved once again how mature you are.I don;t have the time to spelling and grammer checks. So english was not my best subject, like your immature banter about it is going to get me mad. I can not get mad at a simple mind as yourself who has not even come close to growing up. You see that is what kids do when they want to get at someone, they try to talk about something that will get you mad. So what my grammer and spelling are not so great. But you have been able to read everything i have wrote.
Stop the child BS, oh i;m sorry you don't know anything else. to the parent, whatever you say, but you did play russian roulete with your kids future. The one that cares