Author Topic: Do you remember when?  (Read 3298 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« on: August 28, 2002, 08:38:00 PM »
I'm starting this thread because it's been thirty years, altogether since I first steped into the seed on andrews ave. then later to 84. But there are so many things that I don't remember right off, and then sometime during a day or at night a wave of memories will flood my mind. and I'll think oh yeah, I remember that, I hadn't thought of that in 25 years.
So please tell me of some of the things you guys remember, it is very cathartic to me, as I read I remember, and then I'm more equiped to share.
So many open meetings, so many raps,
remember friday nights and hot dogs!
I loved that, but to this day I HATE PBJ sandwichs, I hate folding chairs.
who remembers Cliff, Scott, robert, ginger, susie, suzy, the LIB's (libby) billy grey,
Den Novak, john underwood, paul.
please share with me your stories, of the front gate. how about the 1st time you came in. God so many things, I'll share too, how about you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2002, 05:34:00 PM »
well, here is one of my most shamefull memories.
I had been in the program about 3 months. By then I was trusted to do guard duty on the grounds. The Seed St Pete was unfenced and certain oldcomers would wander the grounds doing security guard duty.
It was mid afternoon on a Sunday and for some reason Suzy, another staff member, an old comer and this newcomer came outside behind the building and all converged around a parked car. This is where many private come down on sessions occured.  The boy was being yelled at and berated. He had recently escaped and been captured and brought back to the seed. All of the sudden the boy (about 14 and pudgy) made  a break for it. Suzy bellowed out laughter at the kid and sent the other staff member and me after him. He ran to the parking lot adjacent to the seed with the staff member hot on his trail and proceeded around a car. I went around the other side and full speed head on grabbed him. Me and the staff member thru him to the pavement and the staff member angrily cocked his arm behind him, i grabbed one arm and we returned the captor to a waiting Suzy, leaning smugly against the car. His lip and elbows were bleeding and his pants were ripped from being thrown to the parking lot pavement.
When we got back to Suzy she hissed at us, "you should have just let him run, he isn't worth Saving- Take him inside!"(this of course after we were directed to go get him).
It never occured to me at the time that I had just committed a crime.
I don't know his name, but if you are reading this, I apologize. I was under the influence of cultic behavior and under extreme duress, and I am sorry for my  role in your torture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MommaDebi

  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2002, 07:38:00 PM »
I think I can remember that occuring...
OhMyGod
I also have a vague memory of somebody running directly from one of the raps, heading out the back (thru rolled up doors?). For some reason I seem to remember that those courageous people, that attempted to "split", generally went during our outside PE time. (rolling those shoulders... oooh, eeeeee, awwwwww).

I am sure that that particular person understands that you were only doing the very best you could under very strenuous circumastances...I believe that we all did the best we could during that time in our lives.

You were very young, as I and many others were, we were indeed "powerless", not like the steps demanded we atone for, but rather because we had no individual power, not in the group, not in our homes and not in the world at large.... Please forgive yourself.


PS)A person that I had dated ran from his oldtimers a few times before he was placed in PAR. Mark Sibilia..are you out there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...every five years I look back on my life and have a good laugh...\" {Indigo Girls~~ \"The Watershed\"}

Offline Somejoker

  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2002, 07:50:00 PM »
One of my favorite memories. There was this kid about 16 or 17 but on the small size that came in just a little after me. He escaped about a week later. Several days passed , he was brought back and was stood up and come down on hard. That night he escaped again. They caught him and court ordered him in. Back then that meant you got a six month program. After court, he came back and they stood him up and absolutely creamed him for like an hour. That night he escaped again. He was caught the next day and brought back and stood up and just hammered for what seemed like forever, but he was smiling. They sent him home with these two huge guys and mocked him about how the windows were locked, alarmed, guard dog, etc and there was NO WAY he would escape again. That was the last time we ever saw him because that night he escaped for the last time.
He was my secret hero!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Somejoker

  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2002, 08:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2002-08-29 16:38:00, MommaDebi wrote:
I think I can remember that occuring...

OhMyGod

I also have a vague memory of somebody running directly from one of the raps, heading out the back (thru rolled up doors?). For some reason I seem to remember that those courageous people, that attempted to "split", generally went during our outside PE time. (rolling those shoulders... oooh, eeeeee, awwwwww).



I am sure that that particular person understands that you were only doing the very best you could under very strenuous circumastances...I believe that we all did the best we could during that time in our lives.



You were very young, as I and many others were, we were indeed "powerless", not like the steps demanded we atone for, but rather because we had no individual power, not in the group, not in our homes and not in the world at large.... Please forgive yourself.





PS)A person that I had dated ran from his oldtimers a few times before he was placed in PAR. Mark Sibilia..are you out there?
I have forgiven myself. I understand now that I was just surviving myself.
Hey,I remember that Name! Mark Sibilia-but I cant place the face.
The sliding doors you speak of were on the end where they led boys rap. It was actually a loading dock for trucks and there is a 4 ft drop right there. One day a guy ran from Guys rap (guy's rap-always a terrifying experience) and got past the guard and jumped....and twisted his ankle on the landing.
I believe the first day or second day I was there someone ran for the main door and was brutally thrown to the concrete and piled onto. I was forteen and that killed my spirit for running. Periodically people broke for the door but I never saw anyone sucessfully escape in this manner. It invariably led to brutality and humiliation for the person whom attempted, and fear for those who saw it.
Do you remember that if you tried to watch these episodes, the junior staff members would direct your attention back to the front by cocking their head and pointing to the rap leader? and if you didn't they would signal the rap leader to stand you up?

You weren't allowed to look anywhere but at the "rap" leader with your back off the chair. If you stopped to indendently think you were poked and prodded and admonished to "get out of your head".
The seed was very effective in its terror tactics.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2002, 08:12:00 PM »
Just reading greg's I remembered something I hadn't thought of in years. With our more risky newcomers someone in the house would take turns sleeping infront of the door, this I always thought was such a buch of crap, we love you so much, were going to hold you captive til we convince you your so screwed up, you become one of us , and then you sleep infront of the door.
anyway, I had this newcomer from gorgia, valdusta if I remember right, well he got by me one night in the middle of the night, I didn't know when, I had never lost one before,
(thats how we thought) mostly I wasn't going to answer to John or libby, so I took off loking for him, got outside, looked around, and seen a consruction site across the street, it was the wee morning, light barley coming out, I walked up to this porto-potty,
knocked on the door, asked, is any one in there, out comes the little voice, NO! go away.
I felt so bad, for the kid, he went on, graduated his program, record time. And RAN
back to gorgia, never looking back, good luck,
I can't remember his name, wish I did.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2002, 08:43:00 PM »
I had two necomers and I don't remember much about either one of them. Truth be told, I didn't give a shit about them. They were status symbols and stepping stones to get out of there.
One time my friends,  kevin Mcvey , was dropped off with his newcomer at my house. Him and I walked out the front door of my house and this guy, who was bigger than me, started running.  Kevin and I grabbed him and thru him down in my front yard, then loaded him in my dad's car and off to the seed we went.
We never even stopped to pause but did what we had to do. I knew if we let him escape we would be in big trouble.
Self preservation ruled the day as always. These are my most shamefull seed memories. That is, other than submitting my mind to the cult.

 one of my newcomers graduated actually graduated before me. He kept calling me and wanting to spend time with me and I just blew him off. I really didn't want much to do with connecting back to the seed. I went to several oldtimer meetings, then a friend of mine and I that were forced to go would just go to the mall and then hang around the restraunt where everyone congregated so we would be seen. This lasted a short while then I absolutey refused to go back. When my sister graduated, My dad decided we no longer had to go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2002, 08:43:00 PM »
here's one, I just thought of.
I was just barley 12, the first 3 days of my 14 day program they let me stay at home, til I said I ain't going in no more, not for me,
my brother(not yet in the program) draged me down, lib's threw me back in group, and that night, I they had me stand up, and they said your going home with so and so, what the F..
as I was being usherd out that night, I saw my dad, who brought my cloths and stuff, I tried to speak to him and he ignored me, that was thirty one years ago, I remember it like yesterday, it hurt like hell, like he abandoned me, they told him to do it.
any way, I'm taken to this house in miami lakes, where they still want to continue play seed half they night, I'm so freakin tired, I go the the bathroom, half way into taking a crap, I fell sound asleep, (they had doors w/ locks @ the oldcomers) the next thing I rememmber, someone is breaking down the door, draging me out w/ my pants around my ankles, thinking I was comiting suicide,
can u belive that SH..- I just wanted a moment to myself and mother nature.
about 9 months later, the screw up oldcomer comes back on the program, front row and center. Guess who gets to be his Oldcomer,
I had a great time w/ him - no locked bathroom doors, i would say. that was sweet..
sick, huh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2002, 08:57:00 PM »
not really sick, just common for the thought process we had.
The whole sleep deprivation thing was/is an essential part of cultic behavior modification. 10 to 10 was no accident either.
the kept you up, kept you hungry, tired and scared. Refused to allow you to think (get in your head). Refused you to relax either your mind or your body ( remember being poked in the back HARD if you even leaned back in your chair?)Held up a reward system based on affection and acceptance, compliance and shame. Coerced your family to join in your torture. Witheld family affection from small children.
The Seed was 20 times more intense than being a moonie,hari krisna or scientologist. Those guys have no idea what it is like to be in a real coersive non- voluntary cult. Those cults are Childs play compared to what we went thru at mostly pre and pubescent periods of our life.
Did we need in patient drug rehab? Hardly. So what then was it about?
Control, manipulation and fear from our parents.
Power, money, praise and worship for Art.
for the other staff members, I think most of them were duped into believing they were really saving the world.
Except a few. Libby and John come to mind. I think they were closer to Art in thought than the rest of us.
I would so like to speak to either one of them..
If you guys are lurking, E mail me for a friendly chat!!!!!
rocky93@tampabay.rr.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MommaDebi

  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2002, 10:14:00 AM »
Greg you said:"Did we need in patient drug rehab? Hardly. So what then was it about?"

I agree that it is all about control.

My perception of a valid in-patient treatment program would be that there would be liscensed therapists doing valid therapy.

I imagine that I would have been better served to have had a bit of real therapy because the dysfunction so prevailent in my own home. Of course my parents did not seek this type of therapy out because their own faults would have been out in the open.

This is not just me being an angry person saying mean and vile things about my family.  Not only did I survive the Seed, but also physical abuse, emotional abuse and incest prepetrated by my brother (who of course never had to enter the Seed).

The Seed was just a way for my family to place the blame for anything wrong in my family squarely on my shoulders. I was and am the "Black Sheep" (even though I have been truly sober now for 20+ years, with my own healthy family unit, and a strong circle of supportive friends) because I refuse to play the game with my bio-family any longer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...every five years I look back on my life and have a good laugh...\" {Indigo Girls~~ \"The Watershed\"}

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2002, 01:44:00 PM »
right on DEb
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

  • Posts: 2841
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2002, 07:36:00 PM »
I too played the black sheep role for a while and even beat myself up. There is a self fullfilling prophecy involved that the seed perpetuated; that without the seed we would surely fail. So when I rejected the Seed and lost my father to the program, I went on auto self destruct. Luckily I pulled out later.


You didn't need therapy at that age and certaintly not drug treatment. Not at least from what you have told us. What you needed was a supporting family.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2002, 07:49:00 PM »
RIGHT ON GREG - NOW YOUR PREACHING TO THE CHIOR. KEEP IT UP, BRO, GOOD WORDS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline DKM84

  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2002, 07:57:00 PM »
"you didn't need at that age,
and certainly not a drug treatment......

What you needed was a supporting Family."

by Greg

If we shall all but live and learn from our past, what greatness can we obtain at last.
DKM84
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline MommaDebi

  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Do you remember when?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2002, 09:08:00 PM »
what a great message about learning from our past!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...every five years I look back on my life and have a good laugh...\" {Indigo Girls~~ \"The Watershed\"}