Author Topic: Amanda is HOME  (Read 20517 times)

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2004, 07:12:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-08-21 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Timoclea

Can you give the statue that says what all you say here? About the legalities, I mean.

Try here:

Quote
Since the late 1970's, we have been contacted in the cases of approximately 16,000 children who were either abducted from the United States or prevented from returning to the U.S. by one of their parents. This part of the website discusses what the Department of State can and cannot do to help you. In addition, because we are only part of the network of resources available to you, we mention other avenues to pursue when your child has been abducted across international borders. For example, you may wish to contact the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC)

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction.html

Quote
Ginger
However, nobody is able to listen well when being called names or falsely accused now, are they?


Yes, it does suck when people do that. But I think I've learned to manage ok.


Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself - that is my doctrine.

--Thomas Paine



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Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2004, 07:46:00 PM »
Its interesting Ginger, and may be useful is some cases; but it in no way applies to this situation; or any situation were the custodial parent has placed a child.
If there are such laws, as mentioned; I would like to know about them. Lots of people would.
I have herd talk about trying to pass such laws; but not that there are any.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2004, 11:02:00 PM »
*sigh*

And it was such a beautiful rant, too.

Unlike Craig, I admit when I'm wrong, and not being a lawyer, I misremembered the law.

*wipes egg from face*

I firmly believe that removing US citizens from the US against their will, without their parents' direct presence at the destination with the kids, is wrong, evil, immoral, sinful, and everything horrible except fattening.

However, I can't prove it on those particular grounds.

I screwed up, I misremembered, ya got me.

But what they're doing is still wrong.

Timoclea
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2004, 11:27:00 PM »
Why Mexico, again? Karen? Anybody? What's the purpose, again, of shipping these kids outside the U.S.?

Never let your sense of
    morals get in the way of
    doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2004, 11:28:00 PM »
Did anybody GET THIS as set forth by the U.S. Dept. of State:

"While parents/guardians may at times act in loco parentis for their minor children and obtain information that is otherwise protected by the Privacy Act, it must also be noted that minor children?s explicit wishes must be respected...."

"Parents/guardians should be aware that U.S. citizens 14 years of age and older have the right to apply for a passport without their parents?/guardian?s permission...."

If a child who is at least 14 years of age has the RIGHT to apply for a passport WITHOUT their parents'/guardians' permission - the ALTERNATIVE to that FACT would be that the child would have an EQUAL RIGHT to REFUSE TO APPLY.

I don't have the law in front of me, but as of February 2004, EVERY CHILD MUST APPEAR IN PERSON WHEN A PASSPORT IS APPLIED FOR. Prior to February 2004, only those children 14 years old and up had to appear in person.  

I want to know how many kids over 14 years of age APPEARED IN PERSON when their passport was applied for.  I want to know if ANY passports are being issued without that requirement being fulfilled. I want to know if our NATIONAL SECURITY is being jeopardized by passport laws being ignored/circumvented.

Kids over 14 years of age who are being forced to get a passport AGAINST THEIR WILL need to be told to RAISE HELL and let it be known that they DO NOT WANT A PASSPORT ISSUED TO THEM. THEN THEY NEED TO DEMAND TO SEE A LAWYER AND THEY NEED TO FILE A COMPLAINT WITH FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

I'll guarantee you that most kids who KNOW that a passport has been issued won't wait around for "teen escorts" to show up and haul them out of the country against their will; and they won't buy the lies their parents will tell them to get them on a plane so that they can be flown out of the country.

The issuance of passports and visas to teens 14-18 years of age and whether they are being LAWFULLY issued DEFINITELY needs to be looked into.
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Offline Paige

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« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2004, 11:52:00 PM »
so what do we do about this?????

This is a multi billion dollar industry that seems to have no regulations. How is that?

Child care facilities have regulations. This is a form of child care, I don't get it. Is it because they are out of the country that there are no regulations? But the ones in the country have serious problems also I do not understand why there seem to be no regulations. Can someone please explain this to me.

By the way Amanda went to the movie tonight with some old friends of hers and had a great time.
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aige

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2004, 12:33:00 AM »
Because there's been a perception since around the Nixon era of teenagers as a distinct criminal class.

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5617&forum=9#50637' target='_new'>Timoclea

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Offline spots

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« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2004, 02:22:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-08-21 20:27:00, Antigen wrote:

"Why Mexico, again? Karen? Anybody? What's the purpose, again, of shipping these kids outside the U.S.?
<


In our case, Ginger, the reason for Mexico was pure and simple....Mexico was the cheapest WWASPS facility available. Less per day, driveable instead of airline tickets.  I think it would have been harder for the stepfather to convince the mother to send our grandaughter to Australia or Brazil or Poland.  Mexico seemed so close.  AND IT WAS CHEAPER!!!  This guy is disabled and spends all his time on the laptop computer we bought for him, resting his bad back in his recliner, figuring out the cheapeast way to do everything, including imprisoning his pesky new stepdaughter and removing her from his life.  He is CHEAP.  One small speck of revenge for me is that WWASPS screwed him by not divulging the true extent of costs.

On the passport issue, Mexico does not need a US passport to enter.  The stepfather did go privately to San Francisco (I don't know where he went) to get the paperwork into place prior to his transport of this child.  She did have to personally sign the visa, but she was only given a single page and told it was a form for entering the "boarding school", not a US travel document.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2004, 11:49:00 AM »
Timoclea,
Just want to be clear; I wasn't throwing egg at you. I would really be interested in laws such as you talked about; So would many others. You (I believe) got conversations on *possible* laws mixed up with conversations about existing laws.

On the Pass Port thing; I don't think there is anyway to get a pass port with out having a picture made. So, no way to do it covertly. As was pointed out, you don't always need a pass port to travel across international borders.
When I sent my son to Dundee, I sent his birth certificate and a copy of his drivers license. That was all they needed.

Ginger,
you ask why Mx? As I recall, This came up do to Josue's interest in working with ALA. I remember a trip they took to look around; Their was much talk about how nice the little town was; how it was an American retirement community; An arts and crafts center; how opportunities for community service were abundant; the property was affordable and beautiful And it seemed like an idea place.  Its true I was never able to go. I would love to, bt its just not so easy for me to travel. My son did spend the Summer there and he loved it. He was glad to get home; but he has often said he misses Mexico and would like to go back. I do believe if it weren't for a certain girl here, he'd still be in Mexico.

I have no wish to make light of Paige's concerns or to trivialize Amanda's feelings. I know ALA in MX has had some growing pains and staff problems. I don't feel it is anything that isn't correctable; that isn't being corrected.

Its true I don't know the people working in MX - but I do know the Roger's family; and I am well acquainted with their selflessness an generosity and compassion. I know they would never tolerate mistreatment or neglect in their program; And if its taking place; I know they would want to know about it. But surely you can understand, when the complaint takes place on a forum, where people are called cunts and told to eat shit, they would tend to discount it. The only reason I don't, is b/c I have been hanging around long enough to know their is intelligence and witt and insight to be found among the refuse.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2004, 03:03:00 PM »
Karen?  I didn't take it as anyone else throwing egg.  I'm a professional writer, and even though I write fiction, I try very hard to get my facts straight.  

It was a harsh rant, for me, about some actions I think are wrong.  If I really lay into someone like that, I usually like to make sure I'm right, first.

Look, I have no problem with kids who want to go to a boarding school having a trip to a foreign country and an experience of a foreign culture.  I have no problem with consenting adults who are into kink and leather doing their thing.  There are things that are perfectly okay when consensual that are intolerable and reprehensible when done against someone's will.

When someone holds a set of positions that trivializes consent as basically beneath consideration, it concerns me.

My view of infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood is that it's a spectrum across which human beings normally gain an increasing amount of say in the decisions in their lives.  Starting with things like, "milk or juice" or "apple or banana" and moving to which of your clothes you wear, to which clothes you buy (within limits), to who you date, to what extracurricular activities you do, to what electives you study in addition to your core curriculum, to where you go on a date (within limits).

The upside of having that gradually increasing choice and responsibility be informally socially mandated is that kids mature at different rates.

The downside is that if a child's parents aren't divorced and both living, a fifteen year old has as much legal right to make basic choices for himself as a two year old.  Namely, none.

My concern with Craig is that his postings (or the  anonymous ones I believe to be his) demonstrate a view of parental authority in complete accord with treating a fifteen year old like a two year old who can do more chores.  I don't get any sense, from his writings, of a teenager as a *person* with rights to go with his responsibilities, rights the parents have a *moral* obligation to respect.

I once knew a doctor's wife who wouldn't pay for her son to have guitar lessons.  He wanted to be a rock musician when he grew up, she refused the lessons because she, "didn't want that life for him."  And then she wondered why the kid was hostile and unmanageable---including making a $500 dent in the car by slamming his skateboard into it.

It's not about the car lessons.  It's about the parent feeling *entitled* to make deliberate choices to *foreclose* life career options her son would have available to choose from as an adult because *she* was afraid he would choose a particular career and didn't approve of it.

It's like refusing permission for a daughter who wants to be an engineer to take advanced math classes in high school because you think said career would be "unladylike."

I don't see an awareness and acceptance from Craig of basic, fundamental social norms of the limits of parental authority over a high school student versus parental authority over a preschool student.

Parents have a responsibility not to make choice-foreclosing decisions for their children as a way of controlling those children long past their date of majority.  Deliberate choice-foreclosing decisions made for the purpose of controlling children after they're grown are evil.

They're one of a class of actions on the part of parents or adults that materially interferes with the ordinary course of maturation of a human being from childhood to adulthood.  When you don't let your teen make and live with the *natural* (not imposed by you) consequences of age-appropriate decisions, it's normal and right for the rest of society to vehemently disapprove of your behavior.

One of the things I think is extremely unhealthy about the whole teen BM industry is that they try to keep the teens from going through the perfectly normal and healthy process of separating from their parents and making more and more of their decisions for themselves---and living with the *natural* consequences of same, rather than artificial ones.

Teens should have curfews and get in trouble if they break them.  Teens should have dress codes to dress within respectable society's social norms for appropriateness for events and activities.  Teens should be expected to go to class and do their schoolwork.  Teens should be expected to follow the rules of common courtesy.  Teens should be expected to avoid violence and avoid illicit drugs.  Teens should be expected to avoid sexual intimacy.

Teens should be expected to slip up and break these rules and push the envelope just because they're teens, and consequences for infractions should be reasonable and proportional.

Teens should have wide lattitude to go places as long as they're back by curfew.  Teens should have wide lattitude within their dress code for personal choice of attire.  Teens should be able to choose assignment subjects and electives and activities in school in line with personal and career interests.  Teens should be able to date the person of their choice provided he/she is within one or two years of their age.  Teens should be able to pick their own friends so long as those friends aren't engaged in ongoing criminal activity (aside from a rare screwup), treat the parents with common courtesy most of the time, and aren't doing things like free-soloing cliffs drunk or having wild orgies.  Teens should be able to read anything they want, no matter how objectionable.  Teens should be able to work at any legal job they can get and use the money as they please.  Teens should be able to go to the prom.  Teens should not be forced to dress conspicuously even if their parents subculture has a distinct mode of dress.  Teens should have freedom of religion.  Teens should have the right, if they are required to attend religious services, to quietly and respectfully not participate and to abstain from preparing religious lessons or professing belief.  Teens should have the right to form and express preferences on the arts, music, literature, religion, and politics that differ from those of their parents.

Those are the basic social norms of our society.

Nobody wants to enshrine it in law and have the child police vetting how you dress your kid *BUT* society basically disapproves of parents who don't accord their teens this basic scope for personal individual choice.

Teens making these personal choices is how teens turn into healthy adults.  It's entirely normal for parents to be somewhat estranged from their teens along the way in the growing up process, and for the parent/child relationships to mend in good time once the grown child is secure in his identity as an adult member of society.

My huge concern with the BM industry is that they seem to be trying to stop this essential, healthy process in its tracks and make these young people into psychologically locked-in-place infantilized sheep *permanently* under their parents thumb, even as full adults, rather than independent adults with individual free choice.

I know some cultures have historically given parents tremendous control over the behavior and choices of their grown children.  The difference between that and this is that *these* parents using the BM industry to preemptively acquire controls over their grown children are NOT checked and balanced by the safeguards of having *their* behavior substantially controlled by *their* parents---who have a great deal more experience of life than the parents of the teens.

I have seen *nothing* from Craig that even hints at a recognition and acceptance of normal social limits on the decisions and choices he and the parents who are his customers can and should make for teens of various ages.

There are limits.  I don't think this industry has a very good sense of those limits.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2004, 05:04:00 PM »
The indsutry is made by control freaks, for control freaks. FUBU BM.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2004, 07:08:00 PM »
OK.
We have a lot of common ground. Your paragraph on what kids ought to be allowed to do - I agree - But what about the various "aside froms" you mention?
 What about the kid whoz natural consequences are getting to be very costly in terms of emotional pain, stress, health, loss of future potentional ; and the over played, but still, definite increased risk of  death?  Have you any idea how terrifying this is? Ever had that cold hand clutch your heart?
When you know your kid needs more help than the family can provide; When all else has proven futile; What then?
Even if, all that is accomplished by a good program, is keeping them safe and sober, until they have a chance to mature out of the behavior - Hey, thats something. Its better than the alternatives.
As for the 'bad' programs - Abuse and neglect are illegal. Fraud is illegal. Seems like what we need is a fast track method of getting these places investigated and perps prosecuted; but what they are doing is already a criminal act.
As for your opinion on Craig; OK, you are entitled to an opinion and you will naturally base it on what you've seen for yourself. I happen to know him a lot better than anyone else on the board. I know your opinion is not accurate. I have seen how hard he tries to help the kids find out what they can do in life that will bring them a joy for living. They are encouraged to peruse music, art and sports. In no way are the kids forced into some preconceived mold of what or who they should be.  
Now, mind you, he is as human as you or I. He gets hurt and tired and frustrated and aggravated, just like you do. Sometimes it shows. But his Christianity is as genuine as a man's can be. I've never met a more devoted servant or more generous heart. This isn't something likely to be apparent on Fornits; but I know the man and I have seen it over and over.
So, I guess I would say, try and cut him some slack. Try and leave room for the notion you might be mistaken in your judgment; limited as it is.
My son and I were talking not to long ago; and ALA came up, and I was telling him about some problem or other they'd had with staff; and he says to me - "Ya know, the problem with the teen help business is there aren't more Craigs."
This kid had a taste of program hypocrites,("smile for the propaganda!") And he knows Craig real well. He does not put Craig in that category. This re-confirms for me I am not mistaken in my judgment.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2004, 08:34:00 PM »
DID I REALLY READ THIS?

"Even if, all that is accomplished by a good program, is keeping them safe and sober, until they have a chance to mature out of the behavior..."


GET REAL: These types of facilities that you hang your hopes on DON'T ALLOW KIDS TO MATURE!!! PERIOD!!!

I believe that a kid would MATURE quicker LIVING ON THE STREETS than being DETAINED in these facilities!!!

Places like ALA do NOT offer REAL life experiences!!!

ALA and CRAIG ROGERS think they are helping a kid "mature" through FORCED CHARITY work.

FORCED CHARITY work is no way to make a person want to volunteer their time and talents when they're an adult.

FORCING others to perform ACTS OF KINDNESS only breeds contempt and resentment. When forced, it is NOT a CHARITABLE ACT - it is SLAVERY - plain and simple!!!

Why do you think Courts in this country have regularly started using COMMUNITY SERVICE as a form of PUNISHMENT? (Because it IS "PUNISHMENT".)

PARENTS: WAKE UP AND PROTECT YOUR KIDS FROM THIS INSANITY!!!
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2004, 11:07:00 PM »
***What about the kid whoz natural consequences are getting to be very costly in terms of emotional pain,stress, health, loss of future potentional ; and the over played, but still, definite increased risk of death? Have you any idea how terrifying this is? Ever had that cold hand clutch your heart?

Yep, it wasn't fun and damned scarey at times. What I learned is that my son was not responsible for my reactions to and feelings about his behavior. Teens HATE to be manipulated by the parents feelings and fears. He was not responsible for my pain, stress, health. I'm the adult. And kids need healthy role models- Adults who can, atleast most of the time, remain calm and matter-of-fact. Be honest and blunt, yet still respectful.
When he got to the point of wanting to make his own decisions and quit school, I treated him as I would a room mate. He paid rent, bought his own food and prepared it, etc... when he had a job and money. When he didn't it went in the debt book. There were many short stints that he chose to live elsewhere temporarily, which was awesome, because he was able to see that things weren't that differnt anywhere else, in some cases worse. At least once he lived on the streets for a couple of weeks. I was terrified, but tried not to show it. He learned so much from that experience. I also was able to trust, for the most part, that he had a good foundation and would make relatively good decisions.

By the time he moved out on his own he owed me $7000. He just finished paying me back this year.

That may not work for you, but somehow you should find a way to stay out of his/her way as much as possible. Life is the best teacher. They're going to have to learn how to live out there, and where they want to fit into society. Some may, but many can not learn from other experiences. My son had to meet matter head on. Any attempts I made to prevent the 'lessons' he was seeking would have driven a wedge further between us. This may have been easier for me to understand because I was that kind of teen.

In the meantime, and every opportunity I got, I would ask leading questions. You don't look so good, how are things going? Are you happy with the choices you're making? Are they meeting your needs? What are your goals for the near future? What are you doing to make them happen? Is there anyway I can assist? Are you interested in getting some counseling? Etc.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2004, 10:38:00 AM »
I made mistakes as a teen that would turn your hair white.

I learned from them.

That's what human beings do--we learn.

Teenagers are *always* rash and dangerous--it's the nature of the beast.

I did need more help than my parents could give me, but I made it anyway.  Sending me away from home would have been the worst mistake they could have made.

Look, unlike most people here I don't have a problem with sending a PITA kid to a strict, non-abusive boarding school *if* the kid is tearing up the house or harming the younger children or otherwise violent or using/hiding drugs in the house---as long as you give the kid advance notice to find somewhere else to live and if there's a non-criminal adult that the rest of society would generally consider responsible willing to take the kid in, you let them.

If the kid is harming the younger kids of course you can't let him stay in the house and if *nobody* wants him he has to go somewhere.

If the entire extended family and community thinks this kid belongs in a controlled environment until he's old enough to be out on his own, he probably does.  One set of parents making a mistake I'd believe.  *All* the kid's relatives and his friends' parents and his friends' grown siblings and the whole community--including the extended community of the outside world--making a huge mistake like that is a little harder to believe.

Residential treatment, even warehousing, is sometimes necessary.  Between putting a 15 year old *nobody* wants in a strict, non-abusive, boarding school or kicking him out on the street, the boarding school is less bad.

It's just way, way overused.  A lot of these kids have adult family or community members who would take them in, and the issue is just that the parents are trying to maintain a pathological level of control---and a lot of times don't even see the extent to which they are entangled with the problem and part of the whole vicious cycle making the problem with the teen.

Ginger is right when she calls the industry a troubled parents' industry.

I'm a parent.  Being a parent is hard.  Being a parent of a kid with special needs is harder.

These parents aren't demons, residential care isn't satan incarnate.  But our current system has woefully inadequate checks and balances to prevent inappropriate placements and shut down abusive and traumatizing institutions.

So sure, when your kid has problems, it's hard.

A lot of times (not always) the solution is counter-intuitive and is less external control over the kid, not more.

The "less external control" solution is underused.  There are a lot of kids for whom it's the optimum solution where it's not being applied.

A lot of times these parents got where they are now by trying to overcontrol a kid with special problems, and then when the kid gets to be a teen and rebels against the overcontrol, the parents try more of what didn't work before.

I think too much of this comes from we parents wanting to "fix" our wounded birds and make it all better.  We want it desperately.  But in trying to go for the perfect, we can lose the good we would have had if we allowed that even our wounded bird can and will learn from mistakes and had a little faith.

Timoclea
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