Amanda is HOME

[Anonymous]

Hi Deb. You write:
"He was not responsible for my pain, stress, health."
Yes he was. He might resent it; but even so, people should consider how their actions and words effect those around them. Teens might not always have learned this, but they need to asap. However, I was speaking of *His* emotional pain, stress and health. He was in trouble and he knew it. He has told me once he was on the plane he was relieved and thinking it was going to be a good thing. He didn't get mad about it until he got there and saw what it really was. Then he was mad as hell, b/c I had told him it was a school. It took a while for him to realize from the things I wrote him, I really thought it was a school. It took me awhile to realize it wasn't, from what he wrote me - and you know the rest of the story.

As for the room mate bit - thats pretty much where we are now and it is going pretty much as you say. But he is 19 now, not 15 - and that makes a big difference.

Timoclea
Once again, we are in agreement. I might be a bit looser with the circumstance for which a teen might benifit from time away from home - but there are so many options that something apropreate should be avilable for whatever the situation. Of corse, *some* kinds of programs are never apropreate.

You say:
"If the entire extended family and community thinks this kid belongs in a controlled environment until he's old enough to be out on his own, he probably does. One set of parents making a mistake I'd believe. *All* the kid's relatives and his friends' parents and his friends' grown siblings and the whole community--including the extended community of the outside world--making a huge mistake like that is a little harder to believe."

Exactly.

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-23 08:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

When you know your kid needs more help than the family can provide; When all else has proven futile; What then?

Then you come to terms w/ some harsh realities.
There may well be little you can do to absolutely prevent your child from experiencing some of the heart aches and hard knocks that your experience tells you they're asking for. If somebody told you exorcism would save him, would you bite? No? Why not? Do you need proof? I could find you a good many believers who would tell you they were saved from Satan's demons through exorcism. Isn't that proof enough?

What I'm trying to illustrate is that the Program is actually not proven to be effective. Not only that, but it is highly suspect for being harmful in that so damned many of us who've been through it all experience similar bad effects years and decades later.

Most of us wish our parents had been more 'neglectful' of us and just let us grow up on our own.

On the brighter side, you may be dead wrong and the kid is not doing half the things you suspect. (happens a lot! Not saying that's necessarily the case w/ your kid in particular) You seem quite convinced that your kid would be dead w/o the program. But you don't know that. And you didn't know when you sent him whether or not he would wind up as another one killed during restraint or from a treatable medical problem as the staff chided him for faking.

As no one can know for sure the ultimate outcome of anything we do, the end can never justify the means. So the preamble to the Hypocratic Oath is in order here; First, do no harm!

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine

[Anonymous]

Hi Ginger.
You write:
"You seem quite convinced that your kid would be dead w/o the program."

No - thats an overstatement. I am just acutely aware he had /was significantly upping the odds.
I do admit, having had several young men in the family die, mostly from being goofy and reckless, has made me hypersensitive and anxious about it.


you point out:
"And you didn't know when you sent him whether or not he would wind up as another one killed during restraint or from a treatable medical problem as the staff chided him for faking. "

True nuff. When I sent him, I had no idea these things ever happened. It was unimaginable for me and I still have a hard time getting my head around it. I never dreamed. . .
What I worried about? Snakes, crocks and volcanoes.
"Stay away from the crocodile - there is no such thing as a tame crocodile"
"Wear your boots when you go on hikes; they have very poisonous snakes there."
"Hey Joe, how longs it been since that volcano was active?"
The boot statement brought much scorn. Mom! You don't know anything about this place! We can't wear Boots! We don't have hikes!"
(Can you see the light bulb flicker?)

[Anonymous]

Based on the laws of the State of Utah, it is evident that laws were broken in the process of removing the child from Utah against the wishes of the parents.


76-5-301. Kidnapping.

(1) An actor commits kidnapping if the actor intentionally or knowingly, without authority of law, and against the will of the victim:
(a) detains or restrains the victim for any substantial period of time;
(b) detains or restrains the victim in circumstances exposing the victim to risk of bodily injury;
(c) holds the victim in involuntary servitude;
(d) detains or restrains a minor without the consent of the minor's parent or legal guardian or the consent of a person acting in loco parentis, if the minor is 14 years of age or older but younger than 18 years of age; or
(e) moves the victim any substantial distance or across a state line.
(2) As used in this section, acting "against the will of the victim" includes acting without the consent of the legal guardian or custodian of a victim who is a mentally incompetent person.
(3) Kidnapping is a second degree felony.

Amended by Chapter 301, 2001 General Session




As far as determining what is the truth and what is not regarding the emails that were sent home, seeing as the child was a participant in breaking the law, what she says cannot be trusted.

The Bible tells us that we are subjected to the laws and governing authorities over us. Period. The child was subjected to her parents, and we are subjected to the laws of the state. The laws as shown above were indeed broken.

Not only has there been interferance with the parents wishes for their daughter, but there has been blatant disregard for lawful order, and as such, with obediance to the Lord. With that in mind, it is obvious that the current situation, the girl being with those who disregard the law, is harmful to her well-being.

[Anonymous]

Removing a child across state line against the wishes of the parent, i.e., kidnaping, can be a federal offense.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-19 10:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

  We are saved by faith in Christ.

Says who?  Not everyone...most of the world, actually...does not believe this.  



I follow this thread because I'm interested in the good vibes from Paige's story.  Sorry that I have to wade through all this crap telling me what *I* need to do, etc.  I'm very glad I'm not incarcerated in a TBS with no recourse (such as a delete key) to block out that which I do not believe.  



Craig, I wish you'd re-title your rants so I could skip them.  You are really offensive, and in the wrong place to prosetelize.  This thread has to do with Amanda and her progress at home. "

Actually, the word of the Lord is not based on whether you believe it to be true or not.  It is true with or without your belief.  The Lord reigns.  It is your choice not to believe.  However, you must understand, there are consequences for your choices.  Jesus is the only way to salvation.

This thread does indeed have to do with the Lord.  The girl was placed where she was because she choose to live a life contrary to the authority that was in place over her, and as such, a life contrary to the Lord.  She made the choices.  God has given us all a free will.  He will not force us to choose.  Not adults, not minors.  This thread is about the Lord because it is denying of the Lord that causes minor children like the girl in question to make bad choices.  It is the denying of the Lord and His supremacy over us that causes people like Paige to think it is ok to be a co-conspirator in the kidnapping of the girl, and crossing her over state lines, in total defiance of the laws of the State of Utah.

If both were submitting their lives to the Lord as they should, none of this thread posting would have ever happened.

[Anonymous]

Okay, buddy, so we'll chalk your vote down as one for the extremist contingent that thinks theocracy is a hunky-dory great idea.

I can't decide whether that's crazy, stupid, or evil of you, or a bit of all three.  Whichever, it's plainly and blatantly *bizarre*.

The people who flew planes into buildings in New York thought they had The Truth, too.  And, like you, they thought their Truth justified doing abominable things to unconsenting other people.

It's something that you haven't killed anyone, but when your opinion was the majority one in Christianity, it sure did kill a lot of people.

Fortunately for our country and the world today, *most* Christians don't share your lack of concern for the individual rights of others.

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

In his mind whatever he believes is true, whether or not you do. Proof is irrelevant to him. Its frankly a waste of time to try to change the opinion of people like that.

His imaginary friend up in the clouds is true and we all just can't see it, or our poor damned souls are blinded by satan or whatever.

He is going to TRY make us all submit to his lord and his beliefs, and apparently his own children, so the best we can do is be thankful to our lord that we're not subject to his control and give him a wide berth. Also, hopefully his children will get a brianstem and think for themselves.

Yeah, free will, no proof, just beliefs passed down by word of mouth and books over thousands of years. Spiffy! Who do be we believe? A lot of this is faith in humanity, dude.

[Anonymous]

To be crystal clear:  Amanda has individual human rights, unalienable ones--whether the laws are currently protecting them or not.  Those rights were violated.  You appear to be hunky-dory with that, apparently because you appear to think your religion says it should be that way.  I think that is some combination of crazy, stupid, or evil on your part.

*Most* Christians would hold that there are things that it's *legal* for parents to do to their teens that it isn't *right* for them to do---things that would violate the teen's human rights.  *Most* Christian parents wouldn't agree with sending Amanda to ALA if Amanda were *their* daughter and would feel, deep down, that to do so would be *wrong*.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Well, it seems to me, if she is seventeen; and she is determined to leave; its just fortunite for her she has a place to go.
Even if it is unwise and unfortunite; it is how it is; and fighting over it not likely to help matters.
Keep in mind as well, God has a real knack for taking bad situations and turning them around for the good of all - So maybe it's best to sit back and see what He'll do with this situation?
Let go, and Let God, in other words.
We all wish Amanda well, no matter her youthful transgretions. So, lets keep that in mind, and not add fuel to an already hot fire.

[Anonymous]

Sounds good to me!!

Amanda is doing well in School and is enjoying being home. She loves spending time with her brother and has been able to spend quite a bit of time with her great grandmother who is 95.


She is looking at getting a part time job soon and planning for the rest of her education.

We still have not heard anything from her parents or from any authorities. There still have been no reports of a missing person made though there are rumors of her being kidnapped by her grandparents circulating from the parents church.

Eventually people will know what really happened and really it doesn't matter anymore. What is most important now is that everyone go on and have a good life. That is the past and we all need to look to the future. I am sure that people will have opinions about this for a very long time and you know it really doesn't matter.

The only opinion that really counts in the long run is God's opinion not some sanctimonious bible thumpin' pontificating individual who seems to believe he or she knows God better than the rest of us.


Let go and let GOD. OK I can do that. Maybe the parents can do that also and step up to the plate to wish her well. We shall see.

[Anonymous]

Is Amanda with step parents, her brother, who is Paige? I'm trying to get a handle on how kids can be legally saved from some of theses places...

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-25 17:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Is Amanda with step parents, her brother, who is Paige? I'm trying to get a handle on how kids can be legally saved from some of theses places...



"

Paige is her grandmother.

[Anonymous]

Ok. That makes sense! How did Amanda's parents get so wacky if her Grandma has sense?  Did they get converted to some extremist religious sect?

[Anonymous]

Sorry to be a buzz kill, but Paige is not Amanda's grand mother, aunt - or any other relation.She would be more of a family aquaintence.
The situation is unique tho, b/c Paige is Amanda's brother's adoptive Mom. She adopted the brother; and Amanda's Family adopted her. But Paige herself is not a relation of Amanda's.