Cookies and cache

[Son Of Serbia]

[ottawa5]

I think that I've made pretty clear that with regard to computer parlance, I don't have a clue--but it stands to reason, in terms of tracking down the source of a post (if that is your interest), an identifier (as opposed to an anonymous posting) would be helpful.

In practical, human terms, I reiterate: the difference between anonymous and ottawa5 (or any other name that can be used as a limited identifier in this forum) relates to a number of things (see previous posts) but at base, they all involve a willingness to be known, even to a limited extent, so that, perhaps someone could look at your other posts and your profile, and understand more about where you are coming from.

And, as I mentioned before, there is an element of speaking from an identity, even when it is limited, that encourages responsibility and coherence and courage, since certain remarks can be ascribed to that identity.

I just think it's better to post with some recognizable username--maybe some people have a really cogent reason to stay completely anonymous, that would be a different matter.

[Anonymous]

OK. Back to Internet talk, folks...I am the un-tech-savvy poster--Shanlea--I'm just trying to figure out how to protect my privacy; I keep hearing stuff about cleaning up cookies (not just on this site, but to protect your privacy in general).  

What is a cache?  How do you clean it up?

I understand about wanting the ID of posters (even fictional) for purposes of congruency.  Funny but I think you get to know the "voice" of some of the people on this site and can tell when they post anon.

On the other hand, I wonder if people sometimes use their user name when they are posting civilly and anon when they are not.  

I sure wish the more threatening posters would just stop because they are undermining the integrity of this whole site.

OK, back to cache....

[ottawa5]

This is kind of funny, and I probably wouldn't ordinarily even take notice, because paranoia doesn't interest me much,  but "Son of Serbia" is such a great username that I must comment.

Also, I am home tonight with a new puppy, a very sweet little creature (which I wouldn't ever have gotten for myself, when I am so busy already, but which my family conned me into), so I welcome the back-and-forth and the conversation, while trapped in Puppyland with this little darling.

Actually, I am a female Canadian (not a guy, if you please), and not even only strictly a Canadian anymore, I guess, since I married an American and took that citizenship (although Canada still recognizes me as a citizen too, because of the way they do things up there).

All that I am going to say now is available in my previous posts, but there is no reason why anyone would be expected to have either the time or the interest in digging through them--I will tell you as much about myself now as I am willing to share.

A few years ago, I was a mother and biochemist and everything in my life was just about perfect (well, perhaps not perfect, but much better than one could reasonably hope for), and then one of my children started to act in ways that clearly were not positive, in terms of either present happiness or future fulfilment.

We put that child in a CEDU school and I, as a not-particularly-psychologically-minded parent, at the beginning, at least, saw all this. at first, as a problem with the child, and the placement almost as a punishment. I must confess also that the placement was really a relief from all the upset that this child was causing.

And then I went to the required CEDU parent seminars and workshops, and it was an amazingly positive thing for me. Among other things, I learned  that I was, in a number of ways, part of my child's problems. And with what I learned there, and what my child learned at the school, we have been able to make something good for each of us, and in terms of our family relationships.

I really don't want to talk much more about my child, each of us should have the choice in terms of how much personal information to share--he is really focused on his future right now. I hope some day he will be willing to share his story here or elsewhere, but I think that you can understand that this must be his choice.

I will only say that (and if this is heresy, it will have to be so), CEDU was wonderfully positive for us.  

In terms of my own story, I feel that I can speak openly--I found that the seminars and workshops helped me gain a whole new dimension of living---on the basis of what I saw in these interactions, I went back to school, and am now getting my doctorate in clinical psychology, with an interest in the discovery of meaning in each individual's life.

So, believe what you want to believe, call me names if you wish, ridicule the meaning I have found, it's just sticks and stones to me (although obviously, in the best of all worlds, I would prefer not to be hit with sticks and stones, even verbal ones).

I truly believe that there are parts of the whole emotional growth experience that are real and positive.  But I understand also that, even when there is something real in an experience, there is always a way to improve upon it, and eliminate what is dangerous, or wrong, or inferior.

I check in at this site because I want to understand what has gone wrong, why not every child in a CEDU school has experienced what we have, and I am interested in how the experience can be improved and made more universal, while at the same time retaining the powerful, positive things that have meant so much to us.

Hope that answers your question.

[Anonymous]

I'm glad you explained this a bit better. I for one went through CEDU quite a while ago so I can't speak for what it is now.

[Anonymous]

You are lucky your kid is not a basket case. CEDU orignally stands for Charles E. Dederich University. You can read all about Dederich and Synanon here (scroll down to Synanon): http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain ... ing35.html

[Son Of Serbia]

i apologize for assuming you were a man.  ottawa5, doesn't sound very feminine to me.  
for the record, my wife is also a canadian citizen,  so please don't get the idea that i hold that against you.

Now that you have confirmed that you are a woman,
there is one thing i have to know.  as i'm
sure you are aware, several posters on other topics in this site have raised the possibility
that you may be a recruiter, or that you are a former or current cedu employee. i've been reading your posts, and the information you've shared about your son, and the details about your experiences finishing the cedu program with him sound vaguely familiar to me.
i believe i have heard this story before,
14 years ago.

On December 28, 1990, i was delivered to cedu by two rather large private investigators (they told me that they were the "school escort service"). i was 14 years old.  The first person i met was the director of admissions (i think that's what she called herself),a woman named PAT SAVAGE.  at first she was extremely friendly, and she began to tell me about the "wonderful opportunity" that awaited me for personal growth and discovery  :: (i was a stupid 14 year old kid, i had no idea what the hell she was talking about). Pat began to tell me about how her son who had graduated from cedu in the mid 80's.  apparantly Pat's son was abusive to his siblings, failing in school, getting in trouble with the law, and his behavior was tearing the family apart.  Pat explained to me how cedu turned her son's life around, and brought them closer together, because she was allowed to GO THROUGH THE PROGRAM WITH HIM.  Pat also mentioned that her experience with cedu INSPIRED HER TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL,CHANGE CAREERS, and that she decided to work at cedu.  Pat kept using words like "Wonderful" and "Amazing", she really made it sound like life at cedu was paradise on earth (boy was that a crock of shit!).

Pat spoke with an accent that i was completely unfamiliar with, however, it was clear to me that Pat was not from California or Chicago (where i lived) or anywhere else i'd ever visited .  i had never met anyone from Canada at that time, but looking back now, Pat could very well have been Canadian.  Pat then handed me a stack of pages (more or less a contract saying that i would follow cedu's rules) that i was supposed to sign.  i asked her if i could think about it, Pat hesitated, and said that i could think about it, but i had to come back to her office and sign the papers before the end of the move-in process. at this point Pat was still being very nice to me.  Pat then turned me over to Russ Decker and 2 older students.

Russ and his 2 cedu sheep walked me around the campus, and then took me to my dorm. they then proceeded to rummage through my belongings and confiscated everything that meant anything to me. Russ then told me i would be stripped searched, and ordered me to disrobe. I refused, and told him "The only guy i'll ever take my clothes off for is my doctor."  I was informed that i would not be allowed to stay if i didn't strip.  i said i didn't want to stay, so Russ and his 2 sheep escorted me back to Pat's office.

the PAT SAVAGE that i met this time was a completely different person.  she was hostile, arrogant, and extremely confrontational.  even her face changed, like she was possessed or something.  i told Pat i didn't want to stay,and she started yelling and threatening me. her face turned bright red. i was told that if i didn't stay, i would be sent to lock up until i was 18, where i would be beaten, abused, raped, and that i would never speak to my family again.  Russ also added that if i go to lock up "i better get used to being fucked in the ass."  Russ and Pat had a great big laugh about that one.  i told them i couldn't believe that my parents would do that to me.  Pat then got my mom on the phone, who told me verbatum "our decision is firm, either stay and finish Cedu's program, our go to lock up and be out of our lives forever." then she hung up. i was devestated. i couldn't believe that my mom would say that to me.  I had no choice but to strip and agree to Cedu's terms.

so tell me ottawa, are you Pat Savage?  i think that you are. there are way too many similarities between what i read in your posts, and the story Pat told me. i cannot simply dismiss this as pure coincidence.  if you are Pat Savage, then you are a LYING, TWO-FACED, COLD-HEARTED BITCH! You deserve every bit of the hostility that posters on this site have shown you.  if i am mistaken, then please forgive me.

As for the username SON OF SERBIA, i am 100% Serbian,  so in a sense, i am a son of Serbia. to my knowledge, i am the only Serb who ever attended cedu.  i've always been proud of who and what i am, and that fact was common knowlege to everyone who was at cedu with me. Cedu staff would use my ethnic pride against me, and i was blown away in quite a few raps because of that pride.  One staff member, Patrick Stambusky, even compared my ethnic pride to that of Adolf Hitler and he labeled me an anti-semite (this could not be any further from the truth, being that nazis and their allies massacred over 1 million of my people as well). i think this was a ploy to get the jewish students to side with him while he was screaming at me. it worked.  I'm sure that anyone who sat in these raps with me remebers them. i chose the name SON OF SERBIA in order to give posters who were at cedu with me an important clue as to my identity.

[ottawa5]

I am not sure where you went, you say CEDU several times and I haven't got time right now to check your earlier posts--are you talking about CEDU High School or RMA? My experiences were with RMA and at a slightly later time period than you are talking about.

There was an older woman counsellor or team leader or something by the name of Pat at RMA at that time, but she didn't seem to be related to my son's team, I only met her once and I couldn't tell you her last name or her accent or whatever. Suffice to say (and you will have to draw your own conclusions) I am not her, and unless that is the woman you are referring to and she got transferred to RMA I don't even know the person you've described. I'll ask my son if it was the same person when I talk with him next.

It's a bit frustrating---I'd rather not give my own name, not only because my child deserves confidentiality if he is not interested in this forum, but also  because I am convinced that there are some potentially deranged people who check in at this site from time to time, I really don't care to be that open with them. If someone wants to be hostile or rude with me that's one thing, but some of these people are talking about assault rifles and going after people's children--I want to stay away from people who would even joke about such stuff---unless I'm working with them as a therapist in a locked ward or something.  Probably just being paranoid, but that's not uncommon here, I've noticed.

But for what it's worth, I have never worked for CEDU, any school, any thing of that nature.  I am in graduate school myself now, I did a recent practicum with some oppositional children as part of my training but that was at a regular high school. Otherwise my past work experience has been in non-psychological/educational areas.

You know, we all initially focus on what we have personally experienced--I tend to focus on CEDU good outcomes because that is my personal experience (to get info on the other side of that equation is part of why I am interested in this site).

You, I would guess, tend to focus on the bad outcomes. Many here will not even entertain the possibility of good outcomes--those "good-outcome" students are, by definition, brainwashed, they're bullies, they're recruiters in diguise, whatever.

But everything I know, and I am a pretty good observer, tells me that there really are good outcomes and among kids who are not bullies and not brainwashed. I'm just not talking about my own family, I'm talking about other families that I know. And I want to understand how people can have such a different experience--does it have to do with different staff, maybe some kids just have personalities that are not going to work with this type of program, maybe at different times, or even on different teams. things were done very differently.

So please consider that there are many stories like mine out there, where both the child and the parent learned a lot and grew from the CEDU experience---maybe that's why the story is familiar to you---it is not unique, that's for sure, I keep in touch with some parents who have the same perspective and have had similar experiences to my own.

I also know parents who have had a variety of other experiences--for instance in one case that I know of, the kid is doing find, but those parents really didn't get much out of, or change much personally because of the parent part of the whole deal.  In another case, the child is right back where he started, but the parents have no complaints about the school, yet were not particularly moved by the parent seminars. So there are many different aspects to this whole thing---I am interested in parsing out the good and efficacious parts of the emotional growth experience, as well as why it was positive for some and not for others.

Why for example, were the raps a nightmare for some people and helpful for others (taking for granted that no one really liked them). Confrontation is not always bad, it comes in and out of fashion in psychology (think about Gestalt techniques), it's actually being used a bit more now in CBT brief therapy than it once was.  It's also a pretty common part of  substance-abuse group work.  But I agree that, especially with children, it must be done with good control, and with real caring (and it is not suitable for children without the ego resilience to cope). If what I read here is not embellished, a good child/program match has not always happened in these schools. These are the sort of between-the-lines parts of the experience that I want to make sense of.

Somebody posted a link to info on SYNANON (I think that's the spelling) and that was helpful because it shows how an idea can get out of hand. That is the kind of useful stuff I am looking for. If I can, I am going to open my own school someday, and that is one part of my interest, the other is to see how good techniques can be developed and used with adolescents in trouble, even if the idea of a school of my own never materializes.

[Anonymous]

Ottawa,
In my view, scientific approaches to judging CEDU is not always helpful.  In fact, people in science have created some of the worst human atrocitites of this millenium.

Second, while I sppreciate your reasoned approach on some level, I feel you gloss over how we were held at CEDU using an excessive and inhumane level of fear.  Such as what Serb mentoned, being threatened to go to Lock Down and being raped. (many of us were threatened this way and many of us were not remotely aggressive or insane.)

In my case, nothing that pertained to any of the reasons that got me into CEDU were ever discussed in a rap or propheet.  Many of the things staff brought up were either partially or totally false. But I had to live with the implications.  In addition, traumatic situations such as rape etc. were handled in a way to make feel more dirty than I already did.  If you read other posts, girls who had sex with one partner were repeatedly told they "had their legs open to the world."  This was very consistent with my experience.  In addition, I have a profound bi-lateral hearing loss.  The staff treated this in the most ignorant fashion possible.  Berating me when I couldn't hear and humiliating me instead of helping me compensate for this disability and not letting it run my life.

I am a sensitive person; all I needed at CEDU was "this is what happened to you.  You can't let fear guide your life. Let's come up with techniqiues to overcome them." I would have been overjoyed at therospect of using POSITIVE peer "pressure" to overcome things.  However, raps were psychologically and verbally abusive and tore me down without really getting at roots of a problem.  In fact, I can safely say that I don't have a single rap experience that was authentic in terms of dealing with the real issue. Staff were not helpful in this goal.  In fact, because I pretty much just followed the rules, it was as if I was in the woodwork and then the would realize "we gotta create something here so we can show something." The staff had a script and followed it. I'm very self insightful, I knew what my issues were, I did not know how to build self esteem or coping skills.  CEDU did not help in this endeavor.
 Last, staff were very manipulative w/my parents.  

As far as how CEDU helped you, I am sure they used gentler, more humane practices to help you in your self discovery.  I doubt they would bite the hand thatfeeds them.  

I guess what bothers me about your posts is that you seem to put the experiences in two categories: positive and negative, but you don't seem to mind that some of us were lied to, manipulated, and verbally and psychologically abused.  That is what is most upsetting about your posts.

I shouldn't care about someone who appears to write the latter group off as just "not benefitting from the CEDU experience" but it does hurt.

[Helena Handbasket]

Ok, did you still want the answer to the original question??  

To clear your cache and cookies, assuming you're using Internet Exploder (oops, I meant "Explorer")... go to your control panel, and click "Internet Options".

Got that?

Good.

Now, at that front screen, click "Delete Cookies".  Gone?  I hope so... but that's all we have to work with right now.

Then....

On the same screen, hit "Delete Files" - this will also delete some retained information that you might be worried about...


Now, if you're really worried about security -- find another OS, use another browser, and check into encryption - oh and...

 ::troll::

[ottawa5]

Here is the thing--and I hope that this helps you understand that what I am doing here is not meant to minimize anyone's pain, which is clearly real in many cases.  That much is obvious, especially when it is expressed as eloquently and genuinely as you do in this post--really with all the elements that a professional writer would use in communicating the true "being" of a situation to his or her reader.

Let me give you an analogy that may help you understand what I am trying to do and why it is not meant to, in any way, minimize any other person's real feelings.

When I was a little girl, quite some time ago, I was sent to a private Catholic school. In those days, I think it is different now, nuns were sometimes rather frustrated women who either could not or would not marry and yet were afraid to be alone in a world that frown on single, independent women.  

Some, though of course not all, of these nuns were not in an ideal psychological state to deal with a classroom full of young children. I won't bore you with all the details but the scenario included locking children in dark closets, children who had talked in class being tied together for long periods, physical punishment via "The Strap", lots and lots of public ridicule and humiliation.

This was not good, I knew it at the time, and I know it now, but in spite of all the bad things that went on, there was a tone of order and dedication and discipline and certainty created in those old-fashioned schools that lead to higher level of achievement and emotional stability when compared to public schools, even taking into account such things as socioeconomic status, purposeful exclusion of problem kids, etc. And, as I have learned at various class reunions over the years, some people have good memories, some no good memories at all, although all supposedly had the same school history.

Now, if I were looking at these programs, I would do it much the same way in which I am trying to look at CEDU and similar programs. If I could, I would try to look at positive and negative outcomes, in terms of academics, in terms of overall functioning. I would try to figure out what was good and bad about these programs and how the good could be preserved and the bad modified or eliminated.  I understand that this is pretty much what has been done at least in some Catholic school systems that I know of, based on reports of old classmates of mine who have had kids in these schools at a later date.

I do not take the fact that someone has looked at that  situation scientifically to be a slap in the face to me, and if a researcher wanted to hear my experience I would not be offended if they saw both the good and the bad in a program, in spite of what my personal experience was.

It's just too simple to say "CEDU is all evil". I believe that sometimes, for a variety of reasons, as in your case, this kind of program is no help at all.  I also believe that in many cases, CEDU has led to good results where other schools have not.

And the reality is that some kids are so out of control at home that they need to be somewhere else until the issues that are making them that way are worked out. I would always say, "If there is any feasible way to keep your child at home and work out his or her problems, do it". Sometimes there isn't. In those cases, I would like to have programs in place that work, and while, by definition they are going to be coercive, to be as respectful and caring of the child as is possible.

It is very bad, the experience that you had at your school.  It seems inauthentic for me to say that I know how you feel about it, but I know something similar, in a way, because of my own early school experiences.  I know that this reognition is a small thing and I imagine and hope that you have people in your life now, with whom you can discuss and work out, in a personal way, these feelings that you have about what happened.

Try to understand that sometimes it is necessary to be dispassionate when observing a situation---it is not meant to indicate that what has gone wrong in the past is unimportant, it is meant to improve what happens in the future.

P. S.  Re your comments on the way parents were treated in the parent education part of the program: the parent workshops that I attended were not always as mild as you might think--I had one with Mel Wasserman in which he brought a number of people to tears, and in which he was very, very direct with just about everyone he spoke to, not going out of his way to spare feelings at all. As far as I can tell he was usually right in his observations: he was certainly right in his observations of me. The parent sessions were of course very much shorter than the school experience, so in that way the parent and child experiences were markedly different.

[Anonymous]

I would avoid any programs listed on this watchdog site: http://www.isaccorp.com/

There are plenty remaining choices.

[CEDU IS A CULT]

Ottawa5- you are too wrapped up in trying to defend your own personal guilt for what you did to your own son.

Of course, you could never simplify things by seeing CEDU as simply  malicious evil committed by willful participates which include the parents.

Maybe you didn't know what you were doing to your poor son.

But now you do.  Wake up!

You have no idea what he's been through.  I could NEVER discuss those things openly with my own mother.

The very headmaster at the school Tim Brace told us all in detail about getting buttfucked for fun in his younger days!!

What would you do if your son's public highschool principal discussed that with him?

Would you defend it by saying,"Well, the principal's not 'all' bad?"

Do you have any idea how stupid you sound to me?

Or maybe you don't believe me.  Well, there are a few people on this site brave enough to confirm things of this nature that happened at CEDU.

[ottawa5]

In the best of all worlds, I'd rather not sound stupid to anyone, actually, but if the price for my own integrity and standing by what I believe is that I sound stupid to you, I guess I will have to pay it--who knows, somebody out there may even be find that you sound stupid to them--it's not impossible. That's the price everyone pays for saying what they believe, at one time or another. I am not going to get too upset about it and neither should you.

Actually, before posting, I had a little look round at some of your previous posts. You have a lot of fire, I don't imagine that you care one way or the other, but I admire that.  And, as you say, you aren't afraid to say what you think.

Also I think that you are very perceptive--I do feel a lot of guilt over what my son had to go through to become, as he is now, a fully-functioning person.  So in a way, you are right,  you are right in sensing my guilt, but it is a little more complicated than it sounds when you say it in your direct way.

I feel very bad that my son got to the point that we decided to use a boarding school before realizing what was going on.  I've told him so, many times, and though he forgives us totally, I still need to do a little work on forgiving myself. I truly don't attach that feeling of guilt to the school we used, probably because we had a good experience with the whole thing...I perceive the school as a necessary evil that helped remedy what I had allowed to happen up to that point.

I don't know who Tim Brace is, perhaps he wasn't there when we were involved with the school (we were at RMA, if that explains my lack of awareness of that individual). And of course my son wouldn't tell me every detail of his life at school or beyond, especially sexually associated details and incidents--it would be very unusual, I think,and often not very healthy, in terms of typical developmental boundaries, if it were otherwise.

But what I do know is that my son is an honest, straight-forward, aware person, and if he had had an overall negative experience at the school, he would let me know that--not only because we understand each other, but because he would not want me trying to re-create any part of that experience in a school of my own.

However, the strength of your convictions, your confrontory style--it has a place, I hope you keep it up, strong people won't be shook by it, and it may help less strong people stand up for themselves.

And I will think about what you've said, as I say, you seem very perceptive to me, I appreciate your input.

I don't think you're going to like this last part, but here goes. There was a time when I would have been absolutely terrified to disagree with someone like you who comes on so strong. I would have been terrified, even of writing, in this pretty private way.  My "Parent Workshops" work was when that changed that, I can't remember the last time I was bullied by someone, although I retain a natural fear of being harmed physically by violent people, that kind of thing.

No, I will not agree that the whole experience was bad, either for my son or for me--I can accept that you had a lousy experience, why cannot you not even consider that I had a good one?

[Anonymous]

This would all be well and good except it has become public that Synanon AND it's offspring (CEDU, RMA, etc.) are extremely questionable. Their days are numbered. It only takes one 60 minutes expose or NY Times article to close the lid of the coffin. Go ahead and be a powerful megalomaniac like Earle, Brace, Wasserman and Dederich. Noone's buying it anymore.