Author Topic: The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God  (Read 9898 times)

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Offline glider

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« on: March 03, 2004, 05:52:00 PM »
The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs.  God

 

I?m talking about black and white thinking, either or thinking.  I?m talking about imagining a mutually exclusive relationship between two concepts where no mutually exclusive relationship actually exists.

For example:

Either a person displays NO signs of drug or alcohol abuse, OR they are an alcoholic doomed to death, prison, or insanity

I believe in God, therefore evolution is B.S.

I believe in Evolution, therefore, God is B.S.

I believe in God, therefore the Earth cannot revolve around the sun (think clergy versus Copernicus)

I don?t believe in God, therefore Jesus never even existed

The bible is either 100% true or its 100% false

I?m against intravenous drug use; therefore making legal access to needles is not in the interest of public health and safety even though the surgeon general, American Medical Association, the American Bar association, and the World health association insist that it is in the interest of public health and safety based on 100?s of studies.

my own politics aside, I think you understand what I'm getting at...

 

People will probably misread my main point here.  I?m not trying to merely  convince you that you SHOULD accept evolution, but if you don?t accept evolution, to do so out of integrity and intelligence rather than ignorance and reactionism. The same goes for anything.  If you don?t believe in God, don?t say Jesus never existed out of ignorance and reactionism but say he never existed on  its own merits.  Historians, whether they believe in God or not, mostly accept that Jesus of Nazareth existed, being the son of God or not is a whole other topic ENTIRELY. Most Christians, and indeed the pope himself, accept evolution. This either/or thinking about God OR Evolution is primarily an American phenomenon.

 

On a personal note, my own prejudiced and personal opinion is that I don?t believe in God, however, I truly enjoyed Mel Gibson?s The Passion of Christ and was deeply moved by Jesus?s message of peace, love, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice. I?ve just been blown away by peoples comments on how they reject evolution(believers) or  reject the entire idea that jesus ever existed(nonbelievers), etc purely based on their personal religious views and not accepting or rejecting those concepts on its own merits. What do you think?

 

This is an excerpt from Evolution For Beginners

http://www.evolution.mbdojo.com/theory.html

There are huge and wide-varying debates and real flaws over the THEORY of evolution among scientists but there is no serious debate among the scientific community over the FACT of evolution.

 

But its ?just a theory?

 

This is such a common complaint about evolution that it deserves a page of it's own.  This comment is born out of misuse of the word theory.  People who make statements like: "But it's only a theory; it's not a scientific law," or "It's a theory, not a fact," don't really know the meanings of the words their using.

Theory does not mean guess, or hunch, or hypothesis.  A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence.  A theory will always be a theory, a law will always be a law.  A theory will never become a law, and a law never was a theory.

The following definitions, based on information from the National Academy of Sciences, should help anyone understand why evolution is not "just a theory."

A scientific law is a description of an observed phenomenon.  Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion are a good example.  Those laws describe the motions of planets.  But they do not explain why they are that way.  If all scientists ever did was to formulate scientific laws, then the universe would be very well-described, but still unexplained and very mysterious.

A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon.  Unlike laws, theories actually explain why things are the way they are.  Theories are what science is for.  If, then, a theory is a scientific explanation of a natural phenomena, ask yourself this: "What part of that definition excludes a theory from being a fact?"  The answer is nothing!  There is no reason a theory cannot be an actual fact as well.

For example, there is the phenomenon of gravity, which you can feel. It is a fact that you can feel it, and that bodies caught in a gravitational field will fall towards the center.  Then there is the theory of gravity, which explains the phenomenon of gravity, based on observation, physical evidence and experiment. Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity replaced the less accurate gravity theory of Sir Isaac Newton, which was the first complete mathematical theory formulated which described a fundamental force.

There is the modern theory of evolution, neo-darwinism. It is a synthesis of many scientific fields (biology, population genetics, paleontology, embryology, geology, zoology, microbiology, botany, and more). It replaces darwinism, which replaced lamarckism, which replaced the hypotheses of Erasmus Darwin (Charles' grandfather), which expanded the ideas of Georges de Buffon, which in turn expanded upon the classification of Karl von Linne.  (see also:  Darwin's Precursors and Influences)

So there is the theory of evolution.  Then there is the FACT of evolution.  Species change-- there is variation within one kind of animal. There is a predictable range of genetic variation in a species, as well as an expected rate of random mutations. Creationists readily admit that a "kind" (an ambiguous, non-scientific term) can develop into different species (i.e. a dog "kind" can evolve into wolves, coyotes, foxes, and all types of domestic dogs) but they insist that it must stop there.  They never give any reason for this fabricated limitation-- they just deny that it can happen.  They just can't accept macroevolution, because it contradicts the "truth" of their dogma. But in reality, there is no limit to the degree that a species can change. Given enough time, a fish-like species can evolve into a amphibian-like species, an amphibian-like species can evolve into a reptilian-like species, a reptilian-like species can evolve into a mammalian-like species, and an ape-like species can evolve into the modern human species.

The process (simply stated) involves the genetic potential of many different types of individuals within a species, the birth of a great many individual organisms, and the deaths of those individuals whose characteristics are not as well suited to the total environment as other individuals of the same species. The deaths of these less well suited individuals allows for the increased reproduction of the better suited ones, which initiates a shift in the appearance and function of the species. Without limitation.  There is more genetic stuff to it than that, but that is basically how it works.

Yes, evolution is a fact, as real as gravity. The fact that all species alive today have descended from a common ancestor can be denied, but not refuted. We know it happens because we can observe it directly in short-lived species, and for longer lived species there is genetic and fossil evidence that is unambiguous. There is no other scientific explanation for the diversity of living species.  Evolution is a very well established scientific concept with a massive amount of physical evidence for support.  It is not a guess.  Evolution is the basis of modern biology, and  universities and laboratories across the world are engaged in research that explores evolution.

You don't have to 'believe' in evolution. You can trust that the thousands of scientists who study this phenomenon aren't morons, or Satanists. You can accept the general idea that life propagates with modifications, and those modifications can lead to improved survival, and that as those modifications are passed over time, many modifications can lead to a species that looks very different from its predecessor. Is that so hard to accept?

I have no faith at all in evolution. (I also have no faith in algebra, chemistry or astronomy). Evolution either stands or falls by the strength of the evidence used to substantiate it. Evolutionary biology relies on factual data, physical evidence, molecular experimentation, and it goes hand in hand with geology.

.............................................

It's true that not every theory withstands the test of time and goes on to be considered a fact by nearly all of the scientific community, but evolution is one that has.
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2004, 06:22:00 PM »
WOW!!!  Great info.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use

--Galileo Galilei

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t. Pete Straight
early 80s

Offline Anonymous

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2004, 06:33:00 PM »
And I do believe in evolution and God!!!!!!!!
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Offline kaydeejaded

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2004, 07:01:00 PM »
I am spirtual but not into organized religion and believe in the theory of evolution.

I think that there is room for both schools of thought in the truly openminded.

I would like to think there is a God but not a fire and brimstone type of God.

I think when ever man starts to interpret something anything they will undoubtedly end up putting their spin on it and bending it to meet their own needs/agenda ect. not necessarily even meaning too or with malicious intent....but that is human nature. five people can read the same thing and get 5 totally different meanings from it.

There is room for evolution and religion. There has to be it is irrational otherwise nowindays in my opinion. The theory just makes sense.

ramble ramble.....sorry  

We need cops.

We can't live without 'em.

But they need to start working for us....

That's no longer an option.

They've pushed it.

They've gone to far.

They've just gone to far.
http://www.freedomtoexhale.com/rb.htm' target='_new'>Tom Crosslin

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or those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don\'t, none will do

Offline GregFL

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2004, 08:16:00 PM »
absolution is a indicator of weak thinking.


You are on target here. Evidence rules, not dogma.
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Offline Anonymous

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2004, 08:49:00 PM »
"Historians, whether they believe in God or not, mostly accept that Jesus of Nazareth existed,"

Please provide some evidence this statement is true. I would agree that christian historians agree, or those relying on the bible as a historical guide would agree with this statement, but in order for non predisposed historians to make this assertion, there would be other independent evidence Jesus existed.

Please post it here.
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Offline GregFL

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2004, 08:50:00 PM »
prior post mine...
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2004, 09:38:00 PM »
>YAWN<  :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2004, 09:40:00 PM »
ft. I here sesame street has a forum probably better suited for your intelligence level if this is over your head...
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2004, 09:41:00 PM »
Personally, I prefer porn and that type of thing. This stuff offers nothing rewarding. At least with porn, I can achieve something..  :rofl:
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Offline glider

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2004, 12:34:00 AM »
Well, there isn't much historical evidence outside the bible of Jesus, but there is at least some:
1. The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Jesus in 115 A.D.
2. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote about Jesus prior to his death in 97 AD
3. The Jew Suetonius wrote about the crucifixion of Jesu in 52 A.D.
4. Pontius Pilate made 2 references to Jesus
5. The Talmud, a Jewish text, refers to Jesus, written prior to 135 AD
Admittedly, this is only circumstantial at best, all written after Jesus? death,  but if you think about it, the bible itself could lead one to believe that Jesus actually existed.  The New Testament was written by many different authors and began to be written around 60 A.D. and it seems the Christian religious movement was already well underway at that time. So that begs the question, Who and how did this religious movement begin other than by Jesus? Maybe a conspiracy to undermine the Jewish authority? I am open to ideas.
~John
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Offline toddbrown

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2004, 02:02:00 AM »
Glider, This is Todd Brown here, fellow Dallas Stright Alumni and Portland resident.....why have we not hooked up yet?
Well anyway if you get this post and could meet me for coffee tomorow at torrefozione on twenty third and kearny at  say, 10:00am that would be quite an interesting way to sart the day.
we could toss around a few stories and mabe talk about evoltion vs. creation

"We had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
words to live by.

If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.  
--Plato

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emeber me? I was Todd Brown Dallas(Irving) Straight 89-90 I commenced and was on staff for a short time, then fell off the face of the earth please email me if you remember me I really want to get in touch with other dallas  straight ppl!

Offline GregFL

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2004, 02:39:00 AM »
Glider, you have hit upon something,unfortunately it is a web of lies. No doubt you found these references on a religious site that didn't mention the controversy surrounding your references. Lets look at them one at a time.

1) tactitus was 115 ad and his writing were believed to be recounts of stories circulating at the time. Not a writing during the life of christ.

2) Flavius Joseph's mention of Jesus. This paragraph, inserted into real flavius text, is a known forgery. Unfortunately, much like the ossuary of Jesus and the shroud of turin, you won't find this fact on religious sites. You must dig a bit outside the realm of those trying to prove their religosity to find it.

3) Suetonius was actually a roman historian, and this is what he wrote: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."  Hardly a jewish eyewitness account of Jesus.He also wrote this about an expulsion of jews in 49 ad  from rome by Cladius "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus" was he speaking of an earlier event and meant Christ? Not likely, it appears he was speaking of an actual living man in 49 ad Chrestus and this was 49 years after christs death.. However, it has been loosely interpreted to mean the Jews in 49 ad were talking of Jesus. Still nothing even remote to being a historical reference during Jesus' life.



4) "the letters of Pilate" are known forgeries and not even good ones. Take the time to read them, they are a hoot. Pilate wrote nothing of Jesus.

5) I am not well versed in the talmud but 135 ad in anything but contemporary.

So, Glider, your reseach only turned up known fraudulent writings that weren't mentioned as such on the christian website you found. Curious? You bet. Historical references to Jesus during his life? You have found NONE save forgeries.

You are correct in your assertion that the bible began to be written 60 years after christs supposed death and that there was a huge christian movement under way. There was also many things occuring at that time by the early church that calls into question their motives and methods.

Did Jesus really exist? The answer is we can not be historically certain. Herod and Pilate never mention him. There is no record of his birth. There is no recording of his death. There are no writings of his that exist. there are no eyewitness accounts written during his life. there are known forgeries that try to  compensate for this, which is suspect.

Do some more digging, Glider, you seem to be someone who enjoys the truth. The problem here is the water is very muddy when you start searching for the truth in religious documents and relying on religious sources for your answers. I have been down this path before you so I would make this comment, always verify anything you get from a religious source outside of religion. Look in skeptical writings and historical sites. Always type in the name of the document into a web browser along with the word forgery or skeptical or fraud to help get another viewpoint from someone who has no reason to lie.

This research may change the way you think.  Have fun. It is late, I hope this post makes sense.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm
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Offline GregFL

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2004, 02:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-03-03 21:34:00, glider wrote:


  So that begs the question, Who and how did this religious movement begin other than by Jesus? Maybe a conspiracy to undermine the Jewish authority? I am open to ideas.



Who knows? There are some theories but they are just that.

 How do religions worshipping hare krisna start, a little blue cow god? Was he really here?  How did the mormon religion grow so big when it is based on proven fraudulent writings from two centuries ago?

Saying he must have been there or the bible wouldn't exist has no basis in reality. It is quite possible Jesus walked the earth (in my opinion as a man, not a god), but evidence outside the bible of Jesus' life is non-existent: written, physical, or otherwise.  

Why?


I don't know either.
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Offline glider

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The Psychology of Totalism and Evolution vs. God
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2004, 09:28:00 PM »
Todd,
Can you meet me at the coffee shop on Monday at 10? Do you live in NW?  I live in SE but I have some lab work to do at the University so thats not too far out of the way. Let me know if you can make it Monday

Greg,
You're right that what I sited is suspect at best and I readily admit that all references happened after Jesus's death. But just as theres no real proff of his existence, certainly nothing disproves it either.  I do feel a little vindication however in that the website you sent me to does say "The vast majority of historians and theologians have always believed in the reality of Jesus' life" but that doesn't mean it should be accepted as merely common knowledge...
I'll keep digging :smile:
~John
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