Another Debate?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-20 12:53:00, TimaT wrote:

"Don't you realize, though, that a lot of these kids would end up in STATE or FEDERAL incarceration if their lives continued on as is?

At least they'd get a fair trial *before* incarceration---which is way more than can be said for now.

"We're putting you in jail because if we don't we're afraid you'd end up in jail."

Sorry, it makes no sense.

Still, I don't want to completely shut down all residential treatment---as I've said elsewhere, I just want specific kinds of oversight and specific safeguards--including that parents shouldn't be able to involuntarily commit their child to a TBS if the child doesn't genuinely have a condition that necessitates residential treatment.

Who decides?  Social services should make the call based on the following:  If an independent psychiatrist finds the kid an imminent danger to himself or others; OR if social services finds clear and convincing proof of delinquent or criminal behavior such as alcoholism, habitual truancy, shoplifting or prostitution; OR if the kid flunks a drug test for an addictive psychoactive drug (other than caffeine or nicotine).

And even then, I want involuntarily committed teens to have the right to free correspondence with anyone with very few exceptions (no felons, convicted j.d.'s, active drug abusers, or sex partners).

I want safeguards so kids who are merely inconvenient and don't like their stepmommy or stepdaddy aren't locked up, and so kids with problems get treated instead of having Stockholm Syndrome and cult dissociation masquerading as treatment.

[TimaT]

A fair trial.

Doesn't conviction at a trial require proof beyond a reasonable doubt?  I KNOW that most of these kids are masters at manipulation.  And they are very lovable kids.  It is a rare jury that wouldn't be swayed.  Hence, back to their destructive ways with the knowledge that they can pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

[Anonymous]

In most, if not all, juvenile courts the kid appears before a judge, nothing is decided a jury...unless there is a serious crime committed.  Judges are MUCH less likely to be "swayed".    

How many hours a day are you at this facility...are you a party to their theraputic treatment or are you strictly academics??

[TimaT]

I tutor on my own hours based on a student's individual needs.  It's about part-time; sometimes in the morning, other times it's afternoon, tonight I'm going in from 5:30 til 8.  I prefer morning and evening so that's when I usually try to go.

[Anonymous]

Tima, how can real abuse be reported if you never believe the kids?

I'm not saying that they don't ever-- or even don't frequently-- lie and manipulate.  But prisons and hospitals have had to institute formal complaint programs and procedures because abuse inevitably occurs when the victims are seen as not credible.  And without such oversight, patient deaths and serious illnesses are also inevitable, since seeking medical attention is seen as manipulation by the lay people who work with the kids day to day and it is dismissed rather than checked out by doctors who could genuinely tell.

Abuse is also inevitable when confrontation and humiliation are used because power corrupts. See the Zimbardo experiment for proof that once you make people play roles of prisoner and guard (or "patient" and "confronter"), the guards become abusive naturally, even after a week, even when they were recruited from the general population, not from those who sought such power.

These kids look great while under the control of these programs-- because they know that until they
look great, they aren't going to get out of the hideous conditions.  *Anyone* would become manipulative in such a situation-- and it is a myth that treatment for troubled kids has to be mean and harsh to work.  It's just that mean and harsh sells better because it's victims can be convinced it was "necessary" and because parents are mad when their kids act out.  Parents who buy mean and harsh also won't question it when it fails because that would mean looking at their role in exposing their kids to abuse when they needed help.  

But if you've been reading these boards, just look at the level of post-traumatic stress disorder seen ten years out in people who participated.  PTSD, I might add, increases rather than decreases the odds of relapse into drug addiction.

One or two accounts of similar abuse is possibly manipulation-- or a bad apple staffer.  100 similar stories from different people (and I've checked, they aren't the same person posting under fake names), is real.  And again, if you had a bad apple staffer, he'd be able to do whatever he wished to kids when he is unsupervised because they'd never be believed.  This is an inherently dangerous situation-- and one which is immensely attractive to abusers.

So if you don't want to be embarrassed by having been employed by a group that turns out to be abusive in a very public way soon, I'd quit now.

[Deborah]

Batter Up. Tima.

Antagonistic- opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle.

You noticed? Yes, I am and I make no apologizes for it. I disagree with the warehousing of teens in principle. I believe there are more humane ways of helping teens who are not yet at peace.

As for lumping them all together, they are more alike than different. They all isolate teens from the real world. I realize that some feel that is acceptable. I think it is wrong.

dis·ci·pline: PUNISHMENT- suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution, severe, rough, or disastrous treatment.
That seems to be accurate. It appears to go beyond punishment and into what some consider abuse, mind control, thought reform. That's the point. And labeling me antagonistic will not change that opinion.

Hate? That's a strong word that implies that my disdain of the industry is based in fear. Not so.
If you've been reading, you know why I don't trust strangers- who severe the teens contact with the outside world-  to properly care for them.

Take a shot at answering the questions I posed to the anon poster. And click the link in my first post which will take you to the Serious Debate thread. There are many, many unanswered questions there as well. Perhaps you are the one to answer them. Or did you just show up to label me fearful, and defend with the same ol tired rhetoric?

Which "special" program do you work for? Do they issue consequences for looking at oneself in the mirror? For looking out the window or the opposite sex? For talking without permission? Do they require teen and parent to attend seminar before they have contact? You know the drill. All the questions that you've seen asked that go unanswered.

[Anonymous]

Deborah - just a question on what you seem to see as wrong.  Looking out a window, or at the opposite sex.  How would you help a troubled teen, one with no self control to learn self control?  The rules may or may not be part of this program, but I see them as a beginning in learning self control, not punishment.  If the rules are clearly defined and so are the loss of points and priviledges, that would seem to be a start of being "aware" of behaviors.  What suggestions do you have for teaching self-control?

[Anonymous]

Didn't most of these teens "sever" their contact with their families prior to entering these programs?  In a wwasps program, they have contact, first by uncensored mail, then by phone calls, then by visits ( on grounds, then off grounds)and then in seminars and home passes.  Can you , Deborah, say you are talking about a WWASPS program or are you talking about another behavior type program that you have personal knowledge of.

[Deborah]

If you see nothing wrong with the so-called 'rules' and consequences, we are worlds apart in our philosophies. I'm not in the mood to spell mine out in detail, suffice it to say that I basically use the golden rule. Do unto others... It worked well for my son who came home from a program with PTSD and went down hill into daily substance abuse.

One obvious difference is that I don't perceive children/teens who are "acting out" as doing so maliciously. I think you, and others, do. And I don't believe that when a child is not at peace with themselves and others, that the solution is incarceration, "discipline" and "punishment". Not allowed to look out windows or at the opposite sex, no music, no inspiration (of choice), etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I don't perceive drug use to be a lack of "self control". That to me, is so far from the truth. When people abuse drugs (or any mind altering substance), they aren't at peace and are attempting to relieve the pain they may not even be aware of.

Skipping/failing school. Another manifestation of the lack of peace and a secondary concern to figuring out what the internal discord is and resolving it. When that happens, drugs fall away or are not longer abused and they have attention for more productive activities such as learning.

You may get the desired results from a program- a compliant child, but I don't believe isloation from the world and unreasonable/ irrational rules and consequences is an genuinely effect method for "helping" a teen (or anyone) find peace. I choose not to have my child "punished" into appearing to care about themselves again. What an oxymoron- external punishment=self love.

Can you put yourself in the teens position and imagine how you would want to be "helped"?

I don't know if "these" (all?) teens severed contact with their families prior to the program and I don't think you do either. To your generalization, I'd say, I think the family probably abandoned them first and later resorted to incarceration.

Anon, why are the teens forbidden to "speak" to their parents until they have earned the "right" to do so? What kind of psychological effect do you think this has on the child?

I believe that that time is used to "condition" the child and parent. To set a precedent, that the program is the ultimate authority in both of their lives. I think program owners laugh behind the "stupid" parents backs. What parent would turn their kid over to strangers without knowing what the "rules and consequences" will be? Yes, I think they believe the parents to be totally ignorant and incompetent. Buck the rules, demonstrate any signs of intellegence or skepticism and you will be labeled "defiant", just like your child. Actually, I was labeled "advarsarial". Think too much for yourself, and your kid will be dismissed. They aren't even interested in a working, cooperative relationship with the parents. They want parents who are so desperate, that they won't ask questions or balk...everyone else walks.

As to the censored mail. There are many parents speaking here about this issue, and yes they were involved with wwasp. Have that debate with them. I'd like to read it.

PS You program fools think so highly of your enlightenment and personal growth, when in fact the methods of the program are not new or different OR anyhthing I would define as desirable. The methods employed are based in the same ol tired religious bullshit philosophy that people are born sinful (flawed) and must be disciplined (some beaten within an inch of their lives) to learn "self control". Nothing new about that. Spare the rod, spoil the child, in a new "deceptive" package.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-02-23 20:25 ]

[Froderik]

/BUMP  :cool:

[spots]

Dear WWASPS-Worker Anon:

I have personal experience with WWASPS, specifically Casa by the Sea in Ensenada, Mexico.  I have been involved since November 2002, when my grandaughter was sent there.  To further your limited knowledge of my experiences and situation, please do a search under Spots on Fornits.  The results of thousands of hours of interaction with experienced BM folks is to learn that WWASPS facilities are identical in techniques, albeit unique in certain aspects of individual facilities dues to location, director, etc.  If WWASPS were "individualized", there would have to be seminars directed toward parents of SCL, TB, CCC...when in fact, it is the One-Seminar-Fits-All.  WWASPS itself proclaims that its Program is similar enough to allow *anyone* to attend *any seminar* [in a certain order].  The behaviorial modification techiques are tried and true, absolutely non-innovative, indiscriminate, and suffer a severe case of bad PR in their brainwashing format.

As to your comments:

On 2004-02-23 15:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Didn't most of these teens "sever" their contact with their families prior to entering these programs?  In a wwasps program, they have contact, first by uncensored mail, then by phone calls, then by visits ( on grounds, then off grounds)and then in seminars and home passes.  Can you , Deborah, say you are talking about a WWASPS program or are you talking about another behavior type program that you have personal knowledge of. "

You are absolutely arrogantly wrong in assuming that the teens given to WWASPS severed their own family contacts.  There are as many reasons kids are shipped off as there are kids, and the "it's all the kids' fault" line is cult thinking.  I can adamantly and irrefutably guarantee that mail is censored, and that phone calls go only to those who progress [e.g., cave and spout the Party Line, admit wrong-doing satisfactory to the whims of staff, perform senseless menial acts of contrition and obedience] stretched over a period of expensive monthly billings without any proof of progress.  It happened in our case, and there is never-ending evidence submitted by others on this board as to the same circumstances.    

I can also assure you that you have the sequence of parent involvement flip-flopped. There are NO PARENT VISITS (grounds for voiding the warranty) if demanded before the Program bestows certain levels, and the first "visit" is yet another seminar, PC1, during which parents and child meet over workbooks, designed to get the child to understand that capitulation to a rigid formula ("See, we told you so") is what "heals families.  Off-site passes and home visits are saved for nearly-graduated ("cooked" in WWASPS jargon) kids.  These freedoms are squeezed into the last month or so of what is usually a 2-year Program...as much as the parents' wallet will allow.  

In our case, 4 of the first 6 letters home were never sent, to either the mother or us grandparents.  In our case, there was NEVER a single phone call in the 10 months of incarceration.  In our case, the family rep insisted for MONTHS that all was going well, even though the child spent the first 2-1/2 months alone in a small room listening to time-worn self-help tapes instead of schooling, physical exercise, therapy (if needed).  In our case, 14 months was the estimate for a typical completed program, which COINCIDENTALLY was the dollar amount available from a second mortgage on the family home.  In our case, we are now dealing with Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome, from the nightmares to the learned ability to fake it and just get by on lies, to difficulties with homework and household chores because these areas are the few available to this teen over which she has complete control.

As to your question to Deborah about her personal knowledge and experience, it should be obvious to the astute reader that this board is not only about WWASPS.  Read the DeSisto thread, the Bethel Academy thread, and...most important...read about Straight and what it meant to children victims who are now thoughtful adults.  Your personal involvement with WWASPS (something I personally would never crow about) clouds your thinking and limits your intellect.  This particular large program has an excellent marketing scheme, but it also carries the stigma of a ton of negative baggage.  It is no different than any other Johnny-Come-Lately teen fixer scheme, and in time it is doomed to fail (probably more sooner than later).  

Like the poster said, Lady, the ship is taking on water as we speak, and I'd get ready to leave quickly when the other rats go before I'd hook my reputation on this employer.