Author Topic: Another Debate?  (Read 4911 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« on: December 20, 2003, 04:59:00 PM »
http://www.encompass-nlr.org/nlr/files/ ... shadow.pdf

This article, seems to share so much that people have debates on, so I thought I'd share it.

---From the Apologia ANON.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2003, 04:58:00 PM »
Anon,
I have read the Luvmour thesis and fail to see how it is relevant to the discussion we were having at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=9&64

How are the Luvmour's associated with WWASP? What exactly did you want to debate?
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2003, 06:20:00 PM »
I'm an different anon-- but it seems to me that the relevance is that the approach taken by these folks is the opposite of that taken by WWASP:

1) the guitar playing kid would have been told by WWASP that he could not have his instrument or listen to any music-- because this was related to a "druggie" identity and that would need to be stamped out.  His own personality would have had to be subverted; rebellion wouldn't be a sign of anything positive, merely a sign that he needed taming and to obey. His guitar would only be returned to him once he had exhibited complete compliance.

2) the teens who acted out sexually would be ridiculed, called "sluts" made to dress that way in front of their peers in an attempt to humiliate them.  Positive sexual development would not be discussed-- no other goal than chastity until marriage would be acceptable.

3) While parents are involved in WWASP (and they make the ludicrous claim that this makes their program unique when family involvement has been a mainstay of drug treatment and behavioral treatment for 20 years), they are encouraged to take control and dictate rules-- not to look at their "shadow" side or at anything that might be causing them to overreact to teen maturation.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2003, 02:52:00 PM »
Deborah - The authors have no connection with wwasp that I'm aware of.  I read this article, and went back and re-read it.  

The main message is that the entire family has a way to re-examine our indificual identities.  WWAsp provides that "right of passage" in all the ways the authors describe:  Acknowledging the old self, Casting off the old self, The Gap, Acknowledgment of the new self, Celebration and Thanking.  

You need to read the entire article to understand, but when I read it, it rang so true in how wwasp mirrors this.  The person that wrote the second response here is making assumptions that have no basis other than heresay.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2003, 02:53:00 PM »
sorry about the typo- individual - not indificual...!!
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2003, 03:32:00 PM »
Anon, I read the entire piece, twice.
While I don't agree with everything, I do think they had some important things to say about the need of teens:

IdealBeing 12.5-17.5 yrs: Strive for freedom and individuality, autonomy. Assertion.
Awareness of ability to procreate- critical agent for life itself.
Needs: Sensitive respect- it is cruel to ridicule a child asserting new identities as it is to slap a baby who falls down while learning to walk.  Tolerance, gentle humor. Non judgmental communication, inquiry. Acceptance of identity explorations- part of individuation. Personal space to manifest new individuation. Peer contact-understanding the beliefs of others. To explore the ?shadow? of family/community. Relating in a healthy manner to the shadow lets natural energy flow unobstructed by secrecy, sexual repression or dogma. Curriculums designed around the teens ideas and interests.

***********

Are you saying that WWASP, or any other programs provides these needs? Tolerance, gentle humor, non judgmental feedback, space to manifest individuation? By their very nature, they absolutely do not.
I read nothing about rigid rules and severe consequences. And if you are suggesting that this is not part of BM facilities, we will never agree and have nothing to debate.
Further, I believe the majority of teens who are incarecerated probably didn't get the needs of Body and FeelingBeing met, to use their terminology. You can not expect or teach or enforce the behaviors of the IdealBeing, if the previous needs were not met. Best case scenerio, they can be made to "act" a certain way out of fear of consequences.

**************
Crux of the problem as stated by Luvmour:
Enormous social pressures force them to compete against their peers at a time in their development when their gift is cooperation, to individuate at a time in their development when their gift is community building, to conform at a time in their development when their gift is to express uniqueness. Cut off from the fulfillment of their innate capacities, their natural expression of self, the children turn to conflict and dysfunction as a cry for help. Parents and teachers become managers of children?s behaviors, rather than co-creators in an evolutionary process.

Parent?s attitude: "It?s her problem, not mine, " "I don?t have time"

The question we ask is not what do we need to do to "fix" her, but how did she get bumped from her natural connection to health and wholeness? And, most importantly, how can we help her reconnect to her own inherent, natural well-being?  And we know how to help her reconnect: Supply those natural needs as an everyday diet wherever possible.
********************

This is where I believe we, as a society, need to putting our attention. If all of us were focused on creating a rational society in which kids real needs were met, we wouldn't be having this debate about warehousing facilities for teens and what they may or may not provide.

Please tell me one facility that would allow a student to have a guitar, much less lessons or a cirriculum designed around that interest.


Program supporters should heed Luvmour's warning:
If we dishonor the natural rhythm of IdealBeing (12-17 years) then we run the risk of destroying the species.

Why do you have to post an article by someone who is not affiliated with WWASP/RR to describe their process? Is it not spelled out in their own literature?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2003, 09:14:00 PM »
i only have experience with two of the wwasp schools, SCL and CCC.  They absolutely do allow their students to have guitars at the upper levels.  I know they have choir, dance, acting and other ways the students can express themselves in this way.  

The information in this article is just another avenue to clarify what many holistic (body, mind, spirit) models can do to bring families back together. Yes, the kids in the programs are a captive audience.  Would the whole family be as committed and open to the work it takes to rebuild communication and to learn and apply the "rights of passage?"  If the problems aren't too severe, yes, but the breakdown occurred in the whole family to the degree of no return for those in the program (both parents, teens, siblings.) The teens are the ones in it 24/7.  Some parents choose to do it 24/7, but not most.

I would love for WWASPS to begin residential treatment for the whole family - mom and dad right next to junior for as long as it takes.  I see so many parents that think because they attended the seminars, or staffed, that they "get it" when at best they are at level 3 when their kid is at level 6.  THey don't apply what they've learned.  That, in my opinion, would be the "PERFECT" program.  

The success comes when both the parents and teen have applied and continue to apply what they've learned.  I know those that do.  It's a daily committed practice.  And, they have fun too!
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Offline Kiwi

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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2003, 04:10:00 AM »
Quote
I would love for WWASPS to begin residential treatment for the whole family - mom and dad right next to junior

Me too, treat the parents the same way as they treat the kids.  I'd love to see that!

At least we can agree on something.  I don't think it would last too long though.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2003, 07:33:00 AM »
When it comes to the for-profit teen help industry, children are more than a captive audience.  They are a meal ticket. Don't believe me?  Look at the homes, cars and bank accounts of their captors.  And the ed cons, CEP's and professional parents-helping-other-parents-lock-their-kids-up association who are also living "high off the hog".  All this talk about the miracle of milking the cow is nauseating.  Greed is not good when it comes to exploiting children and parents.  It is sickening.

 :smokin:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2003, 09:10:00 AM »
So basically the Luvmour essay has no relevance to the topic of discussion- just an example of a holistic model, which in my opinion does not describe any programs methods that I am familiar with and can not be carry out as describe due to the nature of programs.

Did your relative have a guitar? Lessons? Cirriculum designed around that interest, or any other interest? What's the average time for one to reach the "upper" level? What's the worst case for reaching that level? Again, I didn't read anything in the essay that even eluded to severe consequences for minor infractions or loss of ALL rights, including looking at oneself in the mirror and no contact with family or the outside world.

So "most" parents don't "work the program". Does that explain the necessity for incarcerating the youth?
Make the teen the captive audience to "fix" because they know parents will not cooperate- hence the sales pitch focused on "troubled teens"? Would this be a mission of changing the teen inspite of the 'uncommitted' parent?

Rather than the teen or the whole family living in residential treatment (now that is really starting to sound like a cult) how bout they all stay home and get the type of counseling described in the essay? Worst case, maybe jr could live with a relative while the parents go to RT. Sounds like the parents are ultimately viewed as the 'oppositional' and 'defiant' ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 11:10:00 PM »
ATTN: This is ALSO NOT SPAM... :razz:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2004, 01:44:00 AM »
Quote
On 2003-12-23 06:10:00, Deborah wrote:

"

So basically the Luvmour essay has no relevance to the topic of discussion- just an example of a holistic model, which in my opinion does not describe any programs methods that I am familiar with and can not be carry out as describe due to the nature of programs.


<


It has everything to do with WWASPS/Seminars and the Program model.  You just admitted you don't have ANY experience of WWASPS. If you did, you'd see the similarities.

Are you really so closed to the possibility that it really does provide everything in that article and then some? Or do you just like to focus on your own fears to the exclusion of what is being said the doesn't fit your worldview?
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Offline TimaT

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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2004, 03:17:00 PM »
You are so antagonistic, Deborah.  Why, when the WWASP organization has many different schools, each with their own leadership and style, do you insist on lumping them all together in your hate?  

Are you all for a totally au naturel program that would have children making love and singing songs of peace?  Or can you agree that wayward kids who have lived their teen years so far with manipulation, lies, drugs, sex for sale, etc., would need a little more structure and discipline?
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be wise.  What can I say more?
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2004, 03:27:00 PM »
First of all, I'd like to say welcome to the board, Tima. (Tima? spanish name perhaps?) I wonder if you were one of the several anons here and decided to pick a name. If so, good.

Quote
You are so antagonistic, Deborah. Why, when the WWASP organization has many different schools, each with their own leadership and style, do you insist on lumping them all together in your hate?
To me, this seems kinda like asking, "Why do you want to lump Belsen together with Dachau?"

Quote
Are you all for a totally au naturel program that would have children making love and singing songs of peace? Or can you agree that wayward kids who have lived their teen years so far with manipulation, lies, drugs, sex for sale, etc., would need a little more structure and discipline?

I think parents should raise their own kids, or just let them go. Incarceration is something to use only as a last resort, like if your life is in danger. A LOT has been said on this subject elsewhere on this board, you should check out some other threads..  :tup:
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Offline TimaT

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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2004, 03:53:00 PM »
Don't you realize, though, that a lot of these kids would end up in STATE or FEDERAL incarceration if their lives continued on as is?

btw, I've been silently reading for a little while, never posted before.  

I'm a tutor at one of these programs and I've seen firsthand the successes that kids make of themselves when they work up through the levels.  I really enjoy my kids.  :smile:

I can't see the comparison between these schools - at least mine - and concentration camps.  If mine is so completely different, how many others are as well?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
be wise.  What can I say more?
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