Author Topic: The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003  (Read 14621 times)

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Offline spots

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The Horror's of Dundee Ranch in May 2003
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2004, 07:08:00 PM »
Thank you to Fiction Writer Anon.  The analysis is good, giving me some valid reason behind why the WWASPS supporters' vague ramblings seem so incomplete and strange.  

As to the responding Anon, she said:
Quote

... I also do think that since WWASP has been around a long time and out of the thousands of kids enrolled, there must have been a loose cannon staff member here and there who abused their power.



My grandaughter, who was held at Casa by the Sea for 10 months of her 14th year, and who is now living with us, successfully going to high school, dating, keeping up with homework, quietly adds to the collections of anecdotes about her time there as we go about our regular business of living.  It is not occasional "loose cannons" of staff.  A huge percentage of abuse is the result of unlimited Power of Punishment given to newly-minted Upper Levels, a system that WWASPS calls "leadership opportunities".  These 14, 15, 16yo kids, who were victims of the WWASPS techniques against lower levels only days before, are given sudden unlimited power to decide who gets punished.  Was that girl "exhibiting negative attitudes toward Staff" by slumping her shoulders while in her chair?  Was that girl exhibiting "inappropriate behavior in class" by relieving strain by swiveling her neck and turning her head toward a window?  My kid was punished for these infractions, identified by an Upper Level.  She could not sit straight up; she could not round her shoulders; everything was wrong.  

This Punishment Power is like looking at a dog and saying, "Sit".  Amazingly, the dog may sit.  Wow.  Let's try.... and so it goes.  An adolescent given unbridled punitive powers, especially when recently he has been the recipient of unimagined punishment himself, is not praticing leadership.  He is practicing abuse, and he is a loose cannon.

There are not a random few; there are hundreds of WWASPS children, graduates and "pulled" kids who, during their expensive sojourn in WWASPS, learn how satisfying abuse can be, and you can bet they will carry this lesson into their later life with their spouse, children, the kids on the Little League team, their employees. Such is the lifelong dividend of WWASPS policies if the child is not strong enough to return to reality and know that society in general does not condone such activity.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2004, 07:28:00 PM »
Spots, it's not just wwasp.  Most programs give the teens leadership skills training.  It sounds like your girl didn't like being told she was not following rules, or whatnot.  I'm sure she is better off with you and not her real mother, the one you raised.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2004, 07:33:00 PM »
Kids should absolutely not be in charge of disciplining other kids.  This is wrong.  Kids who have completed an accredited Peer Assistance Leadership Course can often be very effective in working with other teens, but there are strict rules about what they can and can not do.  Mainly they LISTEN WITH A HEART and are there to lend their time and training in an effort to be of support to another teen, not to sit in judgment of them, or worse, hand out punishments like candy. These programs (called PALS) can be found in most public high schools across the nation. Spots, perhaps your granddaughter's school has a program like this. It is such a worthwhile program and looks very nice on those college apps.  I know because my own child volunteered as a PAL for 3 years during high school. Anyway, I digress.  What do behavioral healthcare experts have to say about this practice of allowing upper level students to discipline lower level students?  I would be real interested in their opinion.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2004, 07:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-08 16:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Kids should absolutely not be in charge of disciplining other kids.  This is wrong.  Kids who have completed an accredited Peer Assistance Leadership Course can often be very effective in working with other teens, but there are strict rules about what they can and can not do.  Mainly they LISTEN WITH A HEART and are there to lend their time and training in an effort to be of support to another teen, not to sit in judgment of them, or worse, hand out punishments like candy. These programs (called PALS) can be found in most public high schools across the nation. Spots, perhaps your granddaughter's school has a program like this. It is such a worthwhile program and looks very nice on those college apps.  I know because my own child volunteered as a PAL for 3 years during high school. Anyway, I digress.  What do behavioral healthcare experts have to say about this practice of allowing upper level students to discipline lower level students?  I would be real interested in their opinion."


Spots, I did not mean to imply your grandaughter seek the support of a PAL, I meant your grandaughter should volunteer to be a PAL.  She sounds like a great kid and might enjoy helping other kids.  

Sidenote: I don't like that cheap shot taken at you by the other anon.  Plenty of kids have ended up in these programs because of problems triggered by a step-parent.  Advocating for one's grandchild is not a crime, for God's sake.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2004, 08:33:00 PM »
Not sure about theprogram your grand daughter was in, but the one I'm familiar with has a leadership component.  The upper levels don't do the "discipline" - what they do is recommend certain point losses, CAT's, but they don't have the control you think they do.  Another assumption, or it could be the way it is done at another school.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2004, 08:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-08 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Spots, it's not just wwasp.  Most programs give the teens leadership skills training.  It sounds like your girl didn't like being told she was not following rules, or whatnot.  I'm sure she is better off with you and not her real mother, the one you raised.  "


When the rules include not talking to other kids for days at a time, not slumping your shoulders, or not looking out the window, then the rules are oppressive and abusive.

*Nobody* should have to follow those rules.

People have basic human rights---including the right to speak to others, to turn their heads, to change their body positions (the most fundamental of elements of physical liberty).

Children are people, too.  Children have rights.

You nutballs who punish children for talking to other children when there's no acceptable, allowed time to talk to each other for days at a time--you nutballs belong in jail.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2004, 10:44:00 PM »
Yes, how is it that these "nutballs" are not facing charges of at least, willful neglect?  This is pure insanity instutionalzing teens without due-process.  Personally, I would not blame a child for suing their parents. Doubt any lawyers would want to take a case like that, but if one did, and had some notoriety to get him/her on mainstream news programs like Dateline, 48 Hours, 20/20 etc. it would certainly send their ratings sky high.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2004, 10:57:00 PM »
therapists recommend "programs" to keep the teens from having to be "institutionalized."  Big difference.  One being there are behaviors that need to change and a program is what can assist in that change.  Institutions are state or government funded hospital settings where little is done to bring about healthy changes.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2004, 10:22:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-02-08 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"therapists recommend "programs" to keep the teens from having to be "institutionalized."  Big difference.  One being there are behaviors that need to change and a program is what can assist in that change.  Institutions are state or government funded hospital settings where little is done to bring about healthy changes.  "


Any residential program is an institution and is institutionalization.  A dog still has four legs if you call the tail a leg---calling it a leg doesn't make it one.  Calling an institution a program doesn't make it not an institution.

There are private and public hospitals, mental and otherwise, out there and their purpose---which is the only legitimate purpose of non-substance-addiction non-criminal residential treatment----is to stabilize the patient on medication so that the patient can work on behaviors in outpatient therapy.

My problem with the programs is not that it's not possible to do a program *right* that would be beneficial to the patients.  My problem with the programs is that the ones I've seen discussed online do *not* do the thing right.

Rules like not talking to other students/patients---and I'm not talking about simply not talking in class, I'm talking about not talking at all outside of "therapy."  Rules like not turning your head to look out a window or not slumping your shoulders.  Staff that aren't trained to regard application of restraints as inherently dangerous to a patient's life and aren't thoroughly trained--outside the facility and its partners---in non-restraint techniques to de-escalate conflict.  Caloric restrictions or failing to provide a daily multivitamin supplement to assist a bland diet---All these are examples of how to do it wrong and do more harm than good.

A *good* program would have a patient/student seen by a psychiatrist within 72 hours of admission, and once a month therafter, with phone consultations with staff and patient if medication adjustment is necessary in the interim.  A *good* program would have patients meet with a licensed therapist or clinical psychologist once or twice a week, maybe tapering to once every two weeks near graduation.  Therapy should be supportive rather than confrontational.

A *good* program would avoid the onset of Stockholm Syndrome by giving the patient at least three first class postage stamps, three envelopes, a pen, and six sheets of paper a week, with the ability to correspond back and forth with anyone they choose.  Exceptions would be threats of violence to or from the patient or critical rants against the patient.  Screening out correspondents who are convicted felons or particular persons with whom the patient was convicted of delinquent behavior would be acceptable. Where the patient's choice of correspondent is alleged to be a druggie, the correspondent showing up to a local hospital or physician and taking a drug test (and more accurate follow up to check for false positives, if needed)--once--should be considered definitive about whether the "druggie" accusation is true or false.  If it's true, it's okay to prohibit *that* correspondent.  

Examples of the kinds of correspondent who should *not* be tampered with, even if they are not fans of the program and not supportive of the program:   extended family members, friends with whom the patient is not having sex or abusing drugs (one drug test considered definitive), a boyfriend/girlfriend aged within 5 years of the patient who is not abusing drugs or beating the patient or hypercritical of the patient regardless of whether or not the relationship was sexual, concerned adult friends (church, neighborhood, parents of peers, other--nonfelons, passing a drug test, not having sex with the child or beating the child), child protective services, reporters, attorneys, elected officials, fan mail to non-felon public figures the child admires.

Parents should be encouraged to provide more stamps, etc., if the patient is inclined to write more letters.  Letter writing to a broad variety of people is educational and promotes impulse control and healthy communication.  If you write what you're saying to someone instead of speaking it, you inherently have to think twice about what you say.  Therapists can help by encouraging a 12 to 24 hour cooling off between writing a letter and sending it.  They can also help by encouraging the kids to type their letters on the computer and spellcheck and revise them before printing and sending.

Most troubled teens have problems with impulse control.  Fostering regular and broad letter writing by using the child's natural desire for communication with friends and the outside world is an excellent therapeutic tool because it forces the teen to practice interposing actual thought between impulse and communication.  This directly supports the other efforts in therapy to train in impulse control.  It's not what the kid says--even if he trashes the progam up one side and down the other---that has the therapeutic effect.  It's the natural imposition of a time delay between impulse and act.

It's entirely possible to do boarding school right, and provide on-site treatment to children with problems.

The problem with the programs is that they aren't doing it right---they're substituting Stockholm Syndrome and temporarily overlaying the patient's own personality with an artificial "program" personality for genuine quality treatment.
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2004, 02:42:00 PM »
/bump Another a-hole, waving smugly: :wave:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2004, 06:10:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-11 11:42:00, Froderik13 wrote:

"/bump Another a-hole, waving smugly: :wave: "


Frod, you've posted this twice today.  What does it mean?  Who are you talking about? :???:
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2004, 10:11:00 AM »
Wouldn't you like to know... :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2004, 02:07:00 PM »
a post worth revisiting for some of the people who have to much time on their hands by a student who was there Posted: 2004-02-19 09:21:00  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Brainwashed? So let me get this straight, do you think that they "brainwashed" me into "forgetting all the abuse"?!?! You apparently didn't listen on my post when I stated that program kids say what they want to. I have almost been out for as long as I was in there, and so you'd think that the chemicals they used to brain wash me would have worn off by now. Dundee is a past chapter in my life; the only reason I respond to these damned things is because you people choose to be so damn ignorant. I'm telling you, you'd all make great candidates for weekly world news customers. As far as brainwashed goes-- we have two ways to look at things in life- positively or negatively. 6 months before I went to the program my brother got in a car wreck and my best friend was in the vehicle and died. He was the closest person that I had ever lost. Being in the program, I realized that sometimes life deals you a shitty hand, and you have to work with it. Those of us who actually tried to help ourselves out when we were in the program realized that we could make dundee whatever we wanted it to be: good or bad. For me it was all a big adventure. For some kids it was hell, and that's because they decided to feel that way about it-- not because they were abused. Dundee was the toughest episode of my life by far, but because of it I went from being a school drop-out to majoring in engineering at virginia tech with a 3.8. It gave me a chance to get off of drugs. A CHANCE. It was totally up to me whether or not I did anything when I got back- thats why they don't guarantee anything. If they really could brainwash us, then maybe there would be some gurantees; but we have free wills about deciding what we do, just as well as we have them about deciding what we say. You can't stop me from saying something that I want to. It makes me sick that you ignorant people actually believe that you are fighting for some type of just cause here.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2004, 02:08:00 PM »
Ah..we have another SPAMMER. This is NOT me, BTW. (Call me "spammer1")  :grin:
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Offline Christopher Riner

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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2004, 02:36:00 PM »
If you think that not letting kids talk, slouch, or look out windows is abuse, then you obviously do not have an older brother.  Before you label those things as "abuse," take a look at what some of these kids lives were like before they went to the program-- a lot of us came from torn up families.  I would bet my college loan refund (seeing as how that's pretty much my only asset) on the fact that the abuse most of the kids suffered at home was incomparible to the regulations we had to follow in the school-- a lot of us did come from very abusive homes.  In Dundee, kids knew that they couldn't be forced to do anything- and they weren't.  If you didn't want to sit straight up, you didn't have to-- whenever a staff asked you to do something, you could spit in their face.  It would land in o.p., of course, but kids LOVED IT in o.p.  There was a 4 or 5 month period where kids would wake up and wipe a booger on someone else first thing in the morning, just so they could take their towel and book into o.p. and lay down on the floor and not have to go to school.  A lot of these kids pulled this number for months, and were able to avoid everything- school, the program, other rules... it got to a point to where they were holding themselves back.  Parents sent their kids there because they had problems with kids listening to what they told them to do, and so Dundee has an environment that is structured around kids learning that every action they commit creates a result.  Dundee rewarded good behavior, and consequented bad behavior.  Again, it is impossible for Dundee to just flip kids minds into this mind set that if they really want to get home (which was the base incentive for all of us to work), then it would require us following the rules.  Just like in life, if I don't want to pay $1500 a year on my car insurance, then I need to be conscious and not get any tickets.  I am not a parent, and so I really couldn't tell you much about being one, however what I see going on here is a situation where we have many moody, angry parents who are trying to be the saviors of their kids.  You are being their crutch.  I get support from my parents, both emotionally and financially, and I do no disagree with it.  But you can't fight your children's battles for their entire lives, as much as you care about them.  I would be screwed right now if I had never learned to make decisions for myself.  If there was one single point that I wish people would please, please, please, understand, through all of the trash talking, and the finger pointing, and trying to find gaps in other peoples' logic so that you can attack them with your opinion and feel like you are RIGHT, there was not a single kid that left Dundee damaged because they went there.  No harm was inflicted on any of us: physically or emotionally.  If you think that your kid is emotionally of physically traumatized because of the things that they tell you, then you are either misunderstanding, or being lied to.  Since I have been back I have spoken on the phone to two kids who were pulled from the program that I know for a fact say they were abused.  On the phone their voices were shaky, silent, and scared.  The day that those two left, I was sitting at the school with them joking around.  They weren't the same kids that I used to laugh with in our rooms when we were supposed to be on silence, or the happy kids that were always on the basketball court.  They were pulling a huge act, and I knew it.  I spent about 8 months of being with them allllll daaaaaay looooong, and I don't doubt for a second that the reason they carried on those stories after they left was so that they could stay home with their ganja and their t.v....and women-- we all wanted to get out and get us a woman :lol:
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