so when is it ok to force your children to do what the paren

[Anonymous]

There is a point where children are children and must be made to do the right thing.  If a child rebels, then the parents should give it back, ten-fold, as the bible says.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-27 08:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"There is a point where children are children and must be made to do the right thing.  If a child rebels, then the parents should give it back, ten-fold, as the bible says."

I suppose that would make a warped kind of sense if I were a religious fanatic, but since I'm not....

You make two year olds share their toys.  You make preteens and young teens clean up after themselves and do chores around the house.

When a late teen rebels, you ground them and take away priveleges.  You do it proportionally to the problem (how come you jihad johnnies never read the verse "fathers provoke not thy children to wrath"?).

If the teen persistently breaks grounding and won't obey the rules of the house in ways that break the law or damage property or threaten violence, you give him/her a set time to find somewhere else to live and move out *or* you will ship him/her to military school or a restrictive boarding school---the check in the loop is that if you are just nuts, there *will* be friends, neighbors, or family willing to take the kid in.

A teen is not a little kid, a teen is a young adult, who should only have to obey his/her parents' rules because he/she lives under their roof.  If he/she can live under someone else's roof in harmony with that someone's rules, then the parents have no right to "force" the teen to do whatever it is the parents want.

Teens are not fully kids, they're not fully adult---they're at the in-between stage and rebellion is developmentally built-in to get the teens to become independent adults and leave the nest, rather than staying under the thumb of their human and fallible parents forever.

It is, frankly, not surprising at all that a disproportionate number of teens who can no longer abide their parents' rule---and who have mature adults who would be willing to take the teen in while he/she gets a job and finds his feet---are the kids of jihad johnnies like you.

The kid is not insane enough to be a religious fanatic like the parents, and the parents personally can't handle that the kid's growing and developing mature judgement says, "Hey, you guys are a couple of real nutcases about your religion!"

A lot of people believe their religion says they have the right to do terrible things to other people who won't do what they say---so you're hardly alone in that particular belief.  

Hell, a pack of people just like you flew some planes into some buildings not too many years ago.

So you're not alone in your beliefs, I guess.

Doesn't mean the rest of us have to allow you to forcibly inflict them on other people---and children are people, too.

[Anonymous]

Iwill do what ever necearry to make them do as I wish.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-27 10:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Iwill do what ever necearry to make them do as I wish."

Yeah, right.  And then die a bitter and lonely old geezer whose grown kids never talk to him, never call, and who's never met his grandchildren.

They'll cut you out of their lives, and you know what?  You deserve it, asshole.

[ehm]

On 2004-01-27 11:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-01-27 10:54:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Iwill do what ever necearry to make them do as I wish."

Yeah, right.  And then die a bitter and lonely old geezer whose grown kids never talk to him, never call, and who's never met his grandchildren.



They'll cut you out of their lives, and you know what?  You deserve it, asshole."

Just like my mother. She can rot in the seediest old folks home, die, and after she's cremated,  I'll sprinkle her remains over a land fill, wearing gloves, so i don't get her on my hands.

I'm not kidding.

Yeah, we grow up... :roll:

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.

But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.

--A Patriot

[Froderik]

Iwill do what ever necearry to make them do as I wish.

And hopefully, someday, if and when you try to do something terrible to your kid, THE LAW will step in and STOP YOU.

What you're saying is that you'd willingly abuse your kid if necessary to get them to knuckle under to you...if you're so into religion, why don't you ponder this one for a while -

"Let Go & Let God"

(I know, they said it in straight, so what..)

[Anonymous]

I suspect the freako who started this thread is a troll, but the original question was worth answering---along with the warning that kids grow up, they don't forget what you did to them, they don't automatically agree with what you did and why you did it, and if they vehemently disagree, they can and will cut you out of their lives.

Program parents should take the strong disapproval of general society for what they do as a warning that their grown children may agree with general society in that strong disapproval---program parents are risking the permanent loss of affection and contact with their offspring.

I had a grandmother who wondered why I was very, very seldom around her after I grew up.  It was because when I was a kid she'd treated me (and others) quite badly.  I didn't like her, and I didn't want to be around her.

I spent more time around her at the end because her behavior towards others had improved a lot, but for a long time I just didn't want her in my life---and for good reasons.

The adults your kids will be are already pretty much set in their teens---if they already show signs of not agreeing with your religion or politics or social set, chances are that's going to only get, well, more so, after they're out of your house.

If you try to force them into the mold as teenagers that you haven't been able to ease them into with their whole childhood to raise them, you lose them.

If you're cool with that, you might as well let them move into your ex-spouse's or grandma's or neighbor's house and quit talking to them and avoid the rush.

It's cheaper, and gives you the same outcome in the long run.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-01-28 09:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I suspect the freako who started this thread is a troll,

I think you're right.....I posted saying that I've been through the same thing and for Anon to PM me if they really wanted info or help...haven't heard a thing.

It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep
the rest  in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of  all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means  for retaining their advantages.
--Thomas Jefferson to John  Taylor, 1798

[Anonymous]

Yeah, me thinks this is a bogus thread started by someone trying to divert attention away from other threads.  The question is WHY? See any current topics of discussion about the Teen Help Industry that someone might want to disappear into the archives?

 :rofl:

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is that any parent intent on controlling their child rather than guiding and teaching them will end up in conflict with that child.  The parent, in this situation, creates the problem, and because they have the checkbook, they get to excersise the ultimate control. (Talk about a self -fulfilled prophesy.)  Does this parent care if they ever have a real relationship with their child?  I suspect they don't.  It is the nature of the control freak to be emotionally detached.  An honest relationship requires that you give up control.

It is very sad that there are so many people out there who still believe that they can own someone.  We do not own our children.  Children are given to us, for a short time, to prepare them for whatever life brings.  This, of course, is done by example.  The child learns to manage life by WATCHING the parent.  Parents need to look in the mirror and ask themselves:
How do I deal with conflict?  
How do I deal with anger?  
How do I deal with trust?  
How do I deal with addiction?  
How do I deal with relationships?  
How do I deal with honesty?  
How do I deal with disappointment?  
How do I deal with fear?
Chances are that your children respond to these issues the same way.

I have seen what happens to children when they are controlled rather than nurtured.  They become stifled; they lose their voice.  It is the worst kind of parenting.  A child will not express their feelings in a healthy manner to a controlling parent - NEVER!  They will express it in an unhealthy manner because the parent reacts and responds in an unhealthy manner.  Most of the time, a child will express their feelings through behavior - unhealthy behavior.

I have also seen families terrorized by a controlling child.  Good parents do sometimes have problem children.  This is, in my opinion, the exeption and not the rule!!!!!!  In this situation, I do feel that once all at -home- therapy for the child and family have failed, that this child should be removed from the home.  No child should be allowed to destroy a family.
In this situation, it is the child who is in control which makes the decision to send them away a very painful one for the parent, and this parent must learn, usually through therapy, to break the hold that the child has over them.  If they don't, they are wasting their money.

No matter how you cut it, it is the parent who is the key to the destruction or success of a child.  Parenting is a responsibility- not a right.  If your child is not successful, it is because you have failed in giving them what they need.  It is your responsibility to give a child what they need - not the other way around.

[Cayo Hueso]

Love that last post.  It's so hard to find the balance between protecting them from themselves and letting them learn from their own mistakes.  The older my kids get, the more I find that I need to let them learn for themselves...the lessons stick that way.  It's been really hard to walk that line since I'm a survivor of an abusive treatment center.  I wanted to stop my child from doing what she was doing, but you realize at some point that you can't STOP them...you can only teach and guide, as was said before.  It has to start EARLY, it's not like you can have a kid get into trouble and THEN decide that you need to talk WITH them, not AT them.  I've tried to treat my kids in adult manner when possible.  That's not to say I put the same expectations on them as I would an adult...it was more of a respect thing for them.  Seems that a lot of my kids' friends parents treat them more as reflections of themselves instead of treating them as their own person with their own ways of doing, learning, communicating etc.  

Another part of this is the way in which we teach our kids about the dangers of drugs.  This will probably bring down a lot of shit on me, but fuck it.  I was very honest with my kids about not only my own drug use, but the fact that I don't believe that marijuana is harmful.  I explained what I thought were the TRUE risks about pot and then went on to explain the dangers of the rest of the drugs.  When the time came that they tried pot...they saw that I was being honest with them about it and BECAUSE of that, they BELIEVED me about the other ones.  That's not to say that neither of them got into any trouble, but what I had to say about their actions carried MUCH MORE WEIGHT than if I would have just bought into the false scare tactics regarding marijuana.  I liken it to dealing with the sex issue with teens.  Like it or not, they're GOING TO HAVE SEX.....do I just say "don't do it, it's wrong" or do I explain ALL the reasons why I don't want them doing it, but then at the end hand them a condom and tell that if they are bound and determined, at least please be safe about it.  Same thing with pot.  The vast majority of kids are GOING TO TRY IT AT SOME POINT...no matter how "good" of a home they come from.  Give them the TRUE facts...your credibility will go a lot further.  Teach them that if they are bound and determined to try dope, then they better know the risks and they better know how to keep themselves safe.

What I did worked well with my kids, but obviously I'm not suggesting that my way is the best or only way.  We all have to find our own way and as long as the "cure" is not worse than the "disease"...great.  and I use those terms very loosely.

There are two kinds of people; those who's lives have been somehow touched by harsh tragedy and those you don't know very well.
-- Ginger Warbis

[Anonymous]

Okay, but parents don't end up with a controlling child *unless* the family has controlling friends or family memebers whose misbehavior is tolerated by the parents.

Controlling behavior is a habitual pattern.  All children *try* it---but the only ones who *repeat* it are the ones who find, when they try it, that it *works*.

If the child is controlling, the parents' behavior is a huge contributor to how the child got that way---the parent is either a control freak or a doormat.

The only way to deal with a control freak is never to allow the control tactics to work---and since many control freaks will escalate to physical abuse or property damage if thwarted, sometimes dealing with a control freak does mean cutting them out of you life.

There is a valid question, "Suppose you, as a parent, have been a doormat for the spouse or the inlaws or the boss and your kid has already picked up the controlling behavior.  You're changing, but your kid is still controlling.  What do you do?"

Yes, this is a good reason for removing a child from the home.  But you give him/her a clear list of House Rules defining acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and consequences, FIRST.

If the child is controlling and is not going to be allowed to control in future, that means the rules of his/her home are changing from what he's been raised with and the only way he/she knows to Something Else.

It's not fair to ship the kid off without making the new House Rules and consequences clear and consistent and follow-able and giving the kid a chance to live up to the rules.

And it can't be "one screwup and off you go," and there has to be a sane way to atone for transgressions and get back in Mommy and Daddy's "good books"---the standard has to be sane and achievable by that child.

The problem with actually doing this is that doormats tend to be ragers.

Doormats tend to take the controlling behavior, and take it, and take it, and take it, and blow up one day out of the blue and suddenly refuse to take it anymore and go off in a huge technicolor rage explosion---like shipping the kid off to boarding school.

Or like saying "one more screwup and off you go" (typical rage behavior---it *seems* to set a standard, but it's an inherently unachievable standard, because henceforth only perfection will do--or at least that's the message the kid gets, and it's usually the one the parent means, despite his or her later protests to the contrary)---and the kid feels hopelessly defective and so provides the screwup---self-fulfilling prophecy.

Control freak parents ain't perzactly normal, but parents who raise control freaks ain't normal, either. :roll:

Yes, good parents can have bad kids---usually because there's something biologically wrong with the kid that goes incorrectly diagnosed and incorrectly treated---(example--Kip Kinkle and Luke Woodham were psychotic and probably needed *at least* outpatient commitment on antipsychotic drugs).

When you have a bad kid without a biological problem, then *something* environmental happened to fuck the kid up.  Usually either something the parents did or negligently allowed.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-01-29 14:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Okay, but parents don't end up with a controlling child *unless* the family has controlling friends or family memebers whose misbehavior is tolerated by the parents.

couldn't agree more.  that's what I meant about starting early.

Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671877046/' target='_new'> Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.

_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s

[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-01-29 14:34 ]

[Anonymous]

Always, no sometimes, I think it?s me, but you know I know when it?s a dream.
I think I know I mean a ?yes? but it?s all wrong,
that is I think I disagree.


There is such a thing as a strong willed child - who is just 'that way'.
They are so from the day their born, and they remain so all threwout life.
They are natural born leaders and the folks who get the impossible accomplished. But they also drive perfectly good parents up a wall.
Bundle this strong will with complicating factors such as a mental illness or proclivity for addiction; and you have every parent?s nightmare; and its no ones fault.

[Anonymous]

You are right.  There are children born with a proclivity for hyper behavior, deviant behavior,  and so forth.  However, there are parents who have success with them by the way in which they respond.  These children need very specific environments in order to succeed.  It is the parent's responsibility to find out what it is.  Who said being a parent was easy?