Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

Pick it out, pull it apart, tear it up, chew it up and spit it out  ::soapbox::


Check it out - someone said that a level one is "watched" for the duration of their status.  WRONG!  They are on staff buddy for a few days, to get acquainted with the rules.  They are not watched taking a piss or a shower - this lasts only for a couple of days.

Who's  the "what if" person?  Doctor runs are done every day of the weekday.  It doesn't matter if they're faking it, they still go if they say they're sick or whatever, at the parent's expense. Has there EVER been a death at a wwasps school for medical negligence?    That is really grasping at straws.  You ever had your child say they were sick to stay home from school?  Did you take him/her to the doctor every time?

Got any more what ifs?   :rofl:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-09 12:08:00, Anonymous wrote
quote]



Speak for yourself, Anon.  I am not anti-family.

I am not a prisoner of YOUR values and beliefs. I am a powerful, intelligent, passionate human being who thinks adults who buy into these seminars as a lifestyle are the same people who can be trained to do just about anything.  Like disregard the fact that parents do not own their children, their thoughts or feelings.  Stop shoving your values and beliefs down the throats of innocent kids under the guise of bringing families back together. Let them grow up without fear of someone profiting from changing their hearts and minds to fit the VISION of old farts

dressed up like new-age gurus.



 :question:

[Anonymous]

WOULD ANYONE MIND GETTING BACK TO A SERIOUS AND RESPECTFUL DISCUSSION?  

These attacks and statements based on "guesses" are really deteriorating from what looked to be a great resource in the beginning.  By the time I got to page 24 it got "stupid!"  

Wwasps programs are a big target, there's also a rather large population of people that can give you the real story, not something from a newspaper article written with ommission or prejudice. There's a small amount of former wwasps that didn't get what they expected. That IS valuable info too.  If this thread could be kept to first hand knowledge, then it just might be valuable information to others.

Links and articles are not valuable if they come from thinking they know it all based on what they've read. That crap about the seminars/brainwashing is really funny!

The deterioration is coming from links with the attached judgments of people just to throw everyone off into a kindergarten battle of wits.  

I'm amused, laughing as a matter of fact, with a VISION of pre-schoolers on the playground when someone took their toys away.  Boohoo!  

No, I don't share the views of many here. But I also don't profess to know it all, like others.  What I do know  I'd be happy to share.  

My purpose to share would be for parents looking for help, not just in RTC's, but in dealing with the chaos in their family,prevention resources and RESPECT for where they are.  Is there any possibility of respect here and not depend on links to find things to discuss or tear apart?  

My purpose is not to berate real life experience.C'mon we can do better than the last pages of this thread!

[Anonymous]

Anon - lighten up!  The majority of folks have a hard enough time tolerating you programmed parents without reaching for the pepto-bismo bottle every time one of you goes off on the miracle of your great awakening. If you are here for serious discussion and/or debate, then go with the flow.  If you don't like the links, well hey, don't go there.  This is a public forum and all are welcome, as long as they don't bash teens or ex-program parents otherwise, they may find themselves the target of some nasty feedback.

 :wave:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-09 21:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Pick it out, pull it apart, tear it up, chew it up and spit it out  ::soapbox::





Check it out - someone said that a level one is "watched" for the duration of their status.  WRONG!  They are on staff buddy for a few days, to get acquainted with the rules.  They are not watched taking a piss or a shower - this lasts only for a couple of days.



Who's  the "what if" person?  Doctor runs are done every day of the weekday.  It doesn't matter if they're faking it, they still go if they say they're sick or whatever, at the parent's expense. Has there EVER been a death at a wwasps school for medical negligence?    That is really grasping at straws.  You ever had your child say they were sick to stay home from school?  Did you take him/her to the doctor every time?



Got any more what ifs?   :rofl:  "

How do you know if kids can take a piss or shower with or without their "buddy" while they are on the lowest of the behavior modification levels? Seems to me you can't know that or anything else that goes on in these places unless you are there 24/7.  Nice try, "stretch" but you missed the boat on this one.

[Anonymous]

I'm the what-if person... and while you claim that doctor runs are done every day, there are *hundreds* of posts by different kids from different schools on different boards who are genuinely different people (I've called them, visited with some-- none have anything to do with PURE or any of your other distraction techniques), AND SOME OF THESE KIDS SAY THEY SUPPORT WWASP, but they admit that the medical care was very rare and that disease was common.  

There have been several close-calls with death-- and there's one girl who contracted a serious, life-long lung disease (not TB) who must be making the legal department of WWASP fear for its bowel control.

Read what the kids are saying-- call some of the kids who have complaints, who have been out for a while, who just want to see others treated better, who have zero agenda (many aren't involved in legal action), LISTEN to your own kid, and READ WHAT THE CONTRACT SAYS ABOUT MEDICAL CARE.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-10 07:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"



I'm the what-if person... and while you claim that doctor runs are done every day, there are *hundreds* of posts by different kids from different schools on different boards who are genuinely different people (I've called them, visited with some-- none have anything to do with PURE or any of your other distraction techniques), AND SOME OF THESE KIDS SAY THEY SUPPORT WWASP, but they admit that the medical care was very rare and that disease was common.  



There have been several close-calls with death-- and there's one girl who contracted a serious, life-long lung disease (not TB) who must be making the legal department of WWASP fear for its bowel control.



Read what the kids are saying-- call some of the kids who have complaints, who have been out for a while, who just want to see others treated better, who have zero agenda (many aren't involved in legal action), LISTEN to your own kid, and READ WHAT THE CONTRACT SAYS ABOUT MEDICAL CARE.  



"

Thanks, What-If Person. Why would anyone disagree with the need to listen to their own child on any issue, especially when it concerns their health and safety?  Good advice!!!

[Deborah]

***Deborah - Program attitude? There is no "program" attitude. Each person develops their own beliefs, Attitude is a poor choice of words for beliefs.***

The question posed in this debate was why there is such overt disdain for parents who decide its not for them.
Is it an attitude or belief that dissenters are "chattering pigs"?
Who coined the term? The program or 'satisfied' parents? And please define for the readers what "chattering pigs" means, to you.

[Deborah]

***They do censor inbound mail for illegal items, not written content.***

Are you talking about weapons, drugs, etc; or unapproved food, toiletries, photos, momentos, etc. What does the program consider "illegal"?

[Anonymous]

Mr. What-if says here's the relevant passage from the Spring Creek Parent's Manual:

------
The Program staff have to make numerous decisions about when to seek medical/dental help for
students ranging from small to serious ailments, injuries, or needs. We try to make our decisions
taking into consideration a balance between added costs to the parent for medical care, and true
medical need of the Student. The staff, like any parent, can miscalculate the timing or need of
medical intervention. Such miscalculations can result in the student not getting medical intervention as soon as would be recommended or to avoid complications. The Program staff make these
"judgment calls" for and in behalf of the parents. Any such "judgment calls" are subject to human
error, especially since many of these judgment calls would have to be made by a non-medical staff.

For these reasons, the Program or its staff are not liable for any illness, complications or damages occurring to the Student because of a miscalculated "judgment call" made by the staff in terms of the need or timing of medical intervention for the Student.


-----
They are saying quite explicitly that they will put costs first and children second.  They are saying you can't sue them for doing this.  They are saying non-medical staff will decide whether or not a health complaint is real, without medical advice.

You will see *nothing* like this in any above-board school  or program document-- you will certainly see legal disclaimers, of course, but you will not see anyone saying "we're going to err on the side of cost containment" not caution.

[Deborah]

***By the time I got to page 24 it got "stupid!"***

About the time seminars were being debated. Are you denying that Gilcrease is an engineer and his only "qualifications" for "helping" people came through his est/LS training? Set the record straight- if you know. So far, there has been denial about the seminars origins, then they were refered to as "personal growth". That covers alot of territory. Has he departed from his est/LS training to create his own technique/philosophy?

His bio at:
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/ind ... tions.com/

Only mentions:
He has led and developed seminars in management, sales, leadership, and customer service. His programs have been successfully adopted by the Worldwide Association of Specialty Programs.

Previous to starting his own company, David worked as a manager for Sola Ophthalmics, involved in the development and integration of an automated customer service system. His duties included management of all office, phones, and computer systems for a company.

David also worked with Hewlett-Packard as a corporate trainer. While with HP, he developed and taught communications, sales, and management seminars.

As a graduate electrical engineer (BSEE, MSEE), David spent the first eight years of his career in the design of computer hardware and software. His background as worker, manager, and trainer in high-tech industries gives him valuable insight into a client's problems and concerns. His expertise allows him to bring resources to not only the technical sector, but all individuals in a more meaningful fashion, thus having a greater impact in creating real life success.
*******

Another point made, and ignored, is that parents should be told up front what kind of "personal growth" they're signing up for BEFORE they write the check and make a committment. The RR site mentions nothing about Gilcrease's training in est/LS. I find that deceptive.

I'm not sure any of the current posters here are qualified to answer these questions, as some apparently don't know Gilcrease's history.
*****

***My purpose to share would be for parents looking for help, not just in RTC's, but in dealing with the chaos in their family,prevention resources and RESPECT for where they are. Is there any possibility of respect here and not depend on links to find things to discuss or tear apart?***

Well, I don't know. What I do know is that I asked if any of you could talk about Gilcrease and/or est/LS and the connection was denied or glossed over. After I posted the links, someone came back with, "What's wrong with personal growth?" The links show there is a connection and offer more detailed information on that approach to personal growth. Unlike the RR website, where the description of the seminar sounds tame compared to ex-participants accounts.
If you consider that disrepectful, a distraction from discussion or tearing things apart; I'd have to wonder why.
Are you denying the creators training or simply would rather it not be known or discussed? He can continue to lead the public to believe that he is skilled in business management and stumbled onto a way to "help" others, including teens. And how are you qualified to answer, unless you are Gilcrease?

This is a debate. There may never be a "resolution" or agreement. How would this debate need to look for you to feel good, comfortable, in control? Confess your agenda.

[Anonymous]

Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.  This kind of mentality is unacceptable.  Parents need to get proactive and demand the highest standards of care and treatment. Parents have medical insurance to cover their children's healthcare needs while they are residing in these programs, do they not?  So what's the problem?

[Anonymous]

Have any of the owners and operators of these programs been awarded advanced degrees in behavioral science/healthcare?  I mean, specialty schools and programs without staff "specially" trained and qualified in behavioral healthcare seems like an oxymoron.

[Deborah]

***Well, it seems the death of Ian August could have been prevented except for a bad judgment call on the part of his apparently inexperienced and ill-equipped field counselors.***

Not to take this debate off course, but I followed that case closely because I knew Ian. My opinion is that she was barely qualified to be the lead field counselor and was out there with two other ill prepared helpers. She was trained in the programs method of "flushing out fakers". The method proved to be flawed and Ian died as a result. As an EMT she denied her medical training for that of the program. And had nothing in her bag to treat heat exhaustion on the hottest day of the year.
Based on testimony and other related information, Skyline Journey had 20 or more violations of Utah regs that day. Their license was revoked due to 4 violations, declared by licensing only after the DA filed charges. They were charged with ONE.
That incident is a good example of the general program attitude toward teens. Go to this thread for more discussion:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=662&forum=9

[Deborah]

***Links and articles are not valuable if they come from thinking they know it all based on what they've read.***

Parents have a manual that outlines the "discipline" procedures/ BM techniques. What many parents are "discovering" is that programs, not just WWASP, impliment procedures that are not spelled out in the manual. And had they been, the parent may not have signed the contract.

The program parents posting here appear to be of the opinion that they are experts and dissenters are not.

Here's a fact: none of us lived there 24/7. The only experts are the kids and staff. Some in this debate choose to consider and listen to the expert ex-participants. Program supporters choose to listen to the 'expert' staff and directors, and trust the parent manual to be an accurate depiction of how their child is being "treated".

In fact, most of what you are posting is what you have been told and want to believe is true. You were not there 24/7.