Author Topic: Apologia - Serious debate only, please!  (Read 34063 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #300 on: January 10, 2004, 06:40:00 PM »
Landre calls it cognitive education.  I'm not sure why, but to my knowledge, it's behavior modification everywhere else.  Might ask Landre why he says one thing and wwasps says another?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #301 on: January 10, 2004, 06:53:00 PM »
Maybe he should call it "pre-cognitive, pre-education!  Just a thought.  Landre helps parents with zero interest loans.  Maybe someone should let him know to use either behavior modification or the pre cog -

http://www.mediasolutions.com/precog/

Or he has a non-clinical definition for the BM schools.   :rofl:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #302 on: January 11, 2004, 01:52:00 AM »
Someone asked what love meant to me, I assume you meant in terms of intervention or treatment for someone who was harming themselves or making destructive choices.

This therapist speaks closest to what I consider to be a humane approach- an alternative to BM, why BM should be avoided, and what teens and their families are really dealing with when a child is "acting out".

I like his thinking on natural consequences vs parent (program) formulated consequences, except I consider two of his three examples of natural consequences not to be natural, but socially imposed.

I particularly prefer his definition of what "taking responsibility" looks like.
Very different than the program definition- take responsibility = enroll the kid in a program and attend seminars.

http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/a ... iormod.htm
Excerpts:
Therefore, when The Stress Model states that all behavior stems from stress; the use of consequences is not an effective tool for short term altering of behavior and long term development, it is essentially reiterating the fact that children, primarily children of trauma, are reacting from a neurophysiological state of which they only have the power to demonstrate the most minimal degree of control imaginable. If a child is behaving inappropriately, he is not merely behaving inappropriatly but rather is behaving out of a state of neurophysiological upset or stress. In order for parenting intervention to be effective for long term developmental change and immediate behavior alteration the parent must approach the behavior from the perspective of The Stress Model in that the emotions must be expressed in order to calm the stress and diminish the behavior. Otherwise, to give consequences for behavior is merely consequencing behavior and is not addressing the underlying developmental ailment and cause of the behavior. In many ways this alternative approach is a preventive approach because it is working to create the necessary environment for the emotional regulation of stress. Setting the neurophysiological stage to correct what the child's regulatory system has learned and experienced.

Previously, Family-Centered Regulatory Parenting states, " The use of consequences is not an option in the Family-Centered approach due to the principle that the PRIMARY CAREGIVER MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DEVELOPING CHILD. In doing so, inappropriate behavior is a WARNING SIGN that the child is exhibiting a CONDITIONED STRESS RESPONSE and it is the responsibility of the care giver to initiate a learning and safe environment for the at risk child via containment. (This does not mean institutionalization) Within the application of the Family-Centered Regulatory treatment model a system of application is geared towards PREVENTION of upset emotional stress and behavioral acting out rather than INTERVENTION.

Through the overall process of the Family-Centered approach, the very act of parental responsibility begins to initiate the most valuable behavior modifying technique available. The dyadic transactions, which occur between the caregiver and child, create the environment for restoring the lost nurturing and attunement, which created the child's overly, sensitized stress response system in the beginning. In this manner the parent offers the most advanced system for child intervention available because the overall schema of treatment is not merely geared toward behavioral intervention, but towards the neurophysiological underpinnings of behavior itself and the parent-child dynamics that create stress."

In continuation of The Stress Model within the Family-Centered Parenting approach, it must be understood that the entire family can be and is affected by the stress of another family member. Remembering that the PARENT IS THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBLE PARTY FOR THE EFFECTIVE TEACHING AND REGULATION OF STRESS, it must therefore be understood that the parent(s) are always a part of the final family regulatory state.

When implementing The Stress Equation, we can utilize the following situation as a classic example. A father comes home from work stressed out after having been fired. This physiological state is immediately intrudes upon that of the wife and ultimately the child. Being that a child is immature to the parent in all areas, he will generally be the one participant in the home and variable in the equation that acts out the stress through behavior more so than anyone else. In this manner, the child generally becomes the stress target for the rest of the family. In a family of more than one child, the child with the least independent regulatory ability will become the target because he will be the one individual in the midst of the environment the least capable of regulating the stress therefore causing him to act out the most. For this reason, it is generally the child that brings the parent(s) into treatment. On various occasions, it is not only the child in need of the treatment it is the parent(s) as well. In this regard, successful treatment outcome is impossible without the inclusion of the entire family.

In conclusion, ultimately it is the regulatory ability that leads to our success as individuals in society. Unfortunately to many parents themselves lack the mature regulatory system to be effective regulatory teachers to their children. The parents therefore seek professional help and the professional often times ENHANCES THE STATE OF DYSREGULATION by being CHILD BEHAVIOR-CENTERED. When this is occurring the child is often BLAMES, LABELED, and the behavior given REPEATED CONSEQUENCES, in worse case scenarios, the behavior is MEDICATED or the child begins to act out to such a degree that he is placed in RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT. As long as there is NOT A PARENT WILLING TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY to communicate the necessary regulatory lessons, the child will not develop the necessary effective regulatory skills.
****

His theory suggests that no one "chooses" anti-social/ self destructive behavior. The behavior has become the default response.

Q:   What is your area of specialization?
A:  I specialize in the treatment of behavioral and emotional disorders demonstrated by children and families. Primarily, this involves families with children that act out with severe behaviors. Normally, these behaviors range from lying, stealing, and manipulating, to setting fires and hurting others. Often times these children are diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder, however, they may also have been diagnosed as Oppositional-Defiant, Bi-Polar, ADHD, or even Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I place heavy emphasis on the family because this is the center of the healing environment for this child, and also because the family is generally acting out an enormous amount of stress as well.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #303 on: January 11, 2004, 12:42:00 PM »
Great info Deborah, thanks for posting the link. I also agree that natural consequences is a great "regulator" and that when coupled with a few parent-ordered penalties for extra measure, it can be a very effective way to help teens mature both emotionally and intellectually. Certainly worked for me when I was growing up.  The problem I see today is far too many parents are engaged in a power struggle with their non-compliant (defiant) teens and are turning to these programs for purely punitive reasons.  e.g. "There you go, son. Now you will learn to appreciate how good you reaaaaally had it at homea and that we are not such baaaaaad parents, after all."  I was lucky these programs didn't really take off until I was well out of high school.  Who knows, my folks might have shipped me off somewhere as a consequence for stealing dad's car for a joyride to the local Dairy Queen or A&W, which back then, was where all the cool kids hung out, smoking cigarettes or sneaking a hit off a doobie, drinking beer, checking out the girls/guys, listening to our 8 track tapes. Ah, the pleasures of youth!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #304 on: January 11, 2004, 07:00:00 PM »
Deborah - good info, however if you can find a therapist that really cares and would use this, that would be great.  Haven't found one yet.  They ALL say to avoid RTC's and BM's that I've met, but don't have other suggestions other than taking parenting classes and to continue to "visit" them once a week.  The experts all think there's another way, but never seem to create any results that would back up their words or evaluations.

Ahhh...in a perfect world!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #305 on: January 11, 2004, 10:17:00 PM »
"...On various occasions, it is not only the child in need of the treatment it is the parent(s) as well. In this regard, successful treatment outcome is impossible without the inclusion of the entire family."

Actually, it's not just various occasions, but most occasions.

Is there some sort of followup from this article that shows success rates to back up his "theory?"
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #306 on: January 11, 2004, 10:30:00 PM »
Not to discount the whole article, but wouldn't a worst case scenario natural consequence of running away be rape or murder; huffing - death, dropping out of school - a lifetime of welfare or dead end jobs; stealing - jail; internet dating - death or prostitution;

Sometimes parent imposed consequences are needed intead of thinking the worst case scenario will never happen.  

His theory doesn't even look good on paper except in the mild cases of the teen experiential behaviors.  

Yes, that'll teach the kid to not run away! LOL!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #307 on: January 12, 2004, 07:53:00 AM »
It has been my experience with WWASP that their staff is not licensed.  It has also been my experience with WWASP that they do not even provide their upper staff (Therapists, family reps, etc.) with computers to work with.  It has also been my experience with WWASP that although the kids and parents are required to attend seminars the staff is not.  It it my feeling that if these seminars are the "re-birth" or "self growth" targets then the staff should also be requried to attend and complete all before they receive the first pay check.  It has also been my experience that the staff that is with your child 24/7 assigning cats and restraining to your child also have no education in the area of dealing with kids.  It was also my experience that the school teachers do not have educational background either.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #308 on: January 12, 2004, 09:00:00 AM »
***It has also been my experience with WWASP that although the kids and parents are required to attend seminars the staff is not. It it my feeling that if these seminars are the "re-birth" or "self growth" targets then the staff should also be requried to attend and complete all before they receive the first pay check.***

Interesting comment.
After reading Gilcreases history and Landres (and others) promotional sites, I wondered if the seminars aren't atleast in part, geared toward transforming parents into 'highly successful' salespersons.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #309 on: January 12, 2004, 09:41:00 AM »
Psychologist Margaret Singer, professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley, says that Teen Help practices "large group awareness training," a technique designed to turn an individual into an instrument of a larger group.

In an interview last year with the Denver Rocky Mountain News, Singer said that not everyone is capable of coping with the tactics and that some will suffer psychological damage.


http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp7.shtml
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #310 on: January 12, 2004, 12:36:00 PM »
Another intersting fact is the 97% success rate.  This is based on graduates not the after math.  However the graduates would be considered the elite group yet it was stated a mistake was made in hiring grads to work in other facilities after one of the grads attacked another staff member.  Food for thought is.....If your graduate is the ultimate result of your program and seminars.....why is it a mistake to have them as employees?  That is something to ponder.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #311 on: January 12, 2004, 12:40:00 PM »
Another thought is the Landre Foundation that was set up in memory of a suicide teen.  

Well I remember hearing a different story in each seminar with the same end result of a teen death.  Yet is was blamed that this happened because of the fathers ability to pay for further months in the program......  Well the foundation was set up in his name to help others that could no longer afford the costly tuition.  It was set up to help families that had no other alternatives.  The foundation offers only a percentage of help and the parents (broke parents) have to come up with the remainder.  After finding a way to pay the balance they are also required to reimburse the foundation the money they received as help.  I suppose if you are willing to sell everything you own including your home this is a good thing.  :roll:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #312 on: January 12, 2004, 01:12:00 PM »
***Not to discount the whole article, but wouldn't a worst case scenario natural consequence of running away be rape or murder; huffing - death, dropping out of school - a lifetime of welfare or dead end jobs; stealing - jail; internet dating - death or prostitution;***

You used "murder/death" three times. Could you post the figures that show how many kids are dying due to illegal drugs? What warrants such hysteria? The things you listed are not "natural" consequences. Did you read the information? And it is true that many kids run away and never experience any of the things you listed.

Seems there are real consequences to program life as well:

Murder- 60 some teens have died in programs, not including bonifide psych facilities.

Injuries,Accidents- The number of broken fingers, arms, teeth knocked out, busted chins, is also unknown, but frequently reported.

Rape,Sexual molestation- That number is unknown as well, but happens too frequently. Didn't a parent report a recent rape at the program being discussed?

Stealing-Ask any kid in a program, if any of his personal belonging were ever stolen by other participants. Could be why most programs don't allow any personal effects.

There are definite consequences of being isolated from the world, being stripped on your identity, being 18 and not having a drivers license, being behind your peers in school, having no knowledge of world events for 2-3 years, etc.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #313 on: January 12, 2004, 11:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-01-12 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Another intersting fact is the 97% success rate.  This is based on graduates not the after math.  However the graduates would be considered the elite group yet it was stated a mistake was made in hiring grads to work in other facilities after one of the grads attacked another staff member.  Food for thought is.....If your graduate is the ultimate result of your program and seminars.....why is it a mistake to have them as employees?  That is something to ponder."


Maybe I missed something.  Where did it say that wwasps doesn't hire program grads?  They do.  They are working there now.   :???:

Why do folks post links to articles that are at least 5 years old?  Desparate Measures?  5 years later??
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #314 on: January 13, 2004, 01:24:00 AM »
Anon, just because something was written 5 years ago does not make the information invalid or meaningless.  

 :wave:
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