The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[RobertBruce]

No explination given, no conversation had with the other parent in question.

Is it kidnapping.

[Whooter]

No explination given, no conversation had with the other parent in question.

Is it kidnapping.

If it were an escort service they contact the parent in the home ahead of time and set up a time.  It is typically in the middle of the night.  The parent lets the employees into the home and lets them know where the childs room is.  After a brief deescalation the situation is explained to the child.  

RB, what you can do is check some of the escort Service web sites to verify the process used.   The web sites do not use the words Kidnapping at all.  At least not in the ones that I reviewed.



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[RobertBruce]

What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.

[Whooter]

What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.

I agree that it feels like the child was kidnapped.  I would feel the same way.  But the child will realize after talking to the people or the parents later on that it was an escort service.  So when telling the story they should avoid lying and just tell the truth about what occured.

Its like the guy who was shot in a hunting accident.  He just feels the bullet hit him and doesnt know what happened to him.  he is scared that he is going to die and thinks he was shot on purpose or by terrorists.  But after he wakes up in the hospital and finds out it was a hunting accident it would be lying to tell people he was shot by terrorists.

Maybe a better way to approach this is to say "I was escorted to the program via an escort service but I was really scared and thought I was being kidnapped" This would be more accurate and would save the person credibility.



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[RobertBruce]

kid·nap? ?/?k?dnæp/  Show Spelled
[kid-nap]  Show IPA
 
–verb (used with object), -napped or -naped, -nap·ping or -nap·ing.  
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force [/b]or fraud, esp. for use as a hostage or to extract ransom.
Use kidnapping in a Sentence
See images of kidnapping
Search kidnapping on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1675–85; kid1  + nap,  var. of nab

—Related forms
kid·nap·pee, kid·nap·ee, noun
kid·nap·per, kid·nap·er, noun
un·kid·naped, adjective
un·kid·napped, adjective


—Can be confused: ? hijack, kidnap, shanghai, skyjack.


—Synonyms
seize, bear off, bear away.


http://http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kidnapping

Mystery solved. It's kidnapping.

[DannyB II]

What you're refusing to do is consider this from the childs perspective. A child who is snatched out of his bed, handcuffed, and taken in a strangers car and never told where he's going till he gets there is going to feel kidnapped. He's going to describe it the same way. He has no choice in the matter so the situation and feelings involved are going to be similar. To call it that is not a lie.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you Robert that the child may feel like there being kidnapped. But in all actuality they are not. They are not by their parents definition or by the judicial system of this country.
What we fail to explain here is the terror many kids put there parents or parent through (including siblings) entire families are held hostage (so to speak) by this one out of control child. Outside of being picked up by a escort service the next usual step is the police. I will tell you they start their aggressive reactions with the police and they will not like what the police do, to deal with it.
At some point in time Robert, I hope we can finally start talking about the thousands of children who do need the help some of these programs provide.
I think at times some of you here can not identify with the thousands of other kids who do need help.
I am very sorry your parents made a bad mistake with you and placed you in treatment of any kind. I mean that, I am also sorry you ended up at HLA. I know what it is like to be at a program that is abusive.
I also know with a little investigation you will find there are programs out there that are legitimately helping kids.

[RobertBruce]

It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree. I ran into a similar situation with Whooter a few years ago. He refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what comes out of a dictionary. He claimed that because ASR fit the dictionary definition of a school it should be considered as such, even though it did not fit the legal definition of one. I am simply using his own standards now. The situation kids who were taken by escorts are describing fits the dictionary definition of the word kidnapping. The fact that it may notfit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.

That being the case it is apparent these kids are not lying when they say they were kidnapped. Since that has now been settled what other subjects do you feel they have lied about?

[Whooter]

It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree.

In reality it is an Escort Service.  The kids can easily look it up to verify once they get home from their program.

But I understand that many disagree with this and that is what these forums are for is to discuss the issues.



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[RobertBruce]

By that standard if a kidnapper calls himself something else is he no longer a kidnapper?

A person can call it whatever he likes, according to the dictionary, and your standards, it's kidnapping.

[Whooter]

By that standard if a kidnapper calls himself something else is he no longer a kidnapper?

A person can call it whatever he likes, according to the dictionary, and your standards, it's kidnapping.

You need to look at the business model itself.  If they go outside of their model and start kidnapping people then I think it would warrant a call to 911 or the FBI.  But the parents sign over legal custody to these people to allow them to transport the child to the program.  Kidnappers that I have read about dont ask the parents for a waiver.

I think we would need to see some evidence that these people have been arrested for kidnapping.

[RobertBruce]

Not every kidnapper is arrested. Plenty of them get away with it. Doesn't change what they did though.

[DannyB II]

It fits the definition of kidnapping. So at this point we will simply have to agree to disagree. I ran into a similar situation with Whooter a few years ago. He refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what comes out of a dictionary. He claimed that because ASR fit the dictionary definition of a school it should be considered as such, even though it did not fit the legal definition of one. I am simply using his own standards now. The situation kids who were taken by escorts are describing fits the dictionary definition of the word kidnapping. The fact that it may notfit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.

That being the case it is apparent these kids are not lying when they say they were kidnapped. Since that has now been settled what other subjects do you feel they have lied about?

Robert, there is no "agree to disagree" because you don't make laws and you were not the parent that authorized the escort. I am not going to argue with you at all. Because what you have to say about this subject has little credence, it would not hold up in any court in America, what the heck are you going to say to the judge, Websters Dictionary says this, like Websters has more authority then our laws.
(The fact that it may not fit the legal definition (still arguable) is moot.) Robert this sentence does not even make sense. All your doing here is showing your stubbornness.
Solution, change the law and change parents minds.
Which is not going to happen because some children do become overly aggressive to the point parents can not control them, hence, in comes the escort service.

Robert, you are not lying by definition, you are misrepresenting the facts of this subject. We could settle this if your  unyielding attitude would change a little.

[RobertBruce]

It is no different than the fact that ASR would not be considered a school in a court of law. Despite whatever the programs supporters might have claimed, it simply did not fit the legal definition.

Whooter started this thread, I am simply using his own standards in the conversation. This is not an attack, or playing games by any means, I'm simply employing the same tactics used earlier. According to Whooter if something fits the dictionary's definition of a term, then the fact that it may not fit the legal definition simply does not matter.

Under that standard it is reasonable for a child who is escorted to a program under those conditions kidnapping.

Do you disagree?

[DannyB II]

It is no different than the fact that ASR would not be considered a school in a court of law. Despite whatever the programs supporters might have claimed, it simply did not fit the legal definition.

Whooter started this thread, I am simply using his own standards in the conversation. This is not an attack, or playing games by any means, I'm simply employing the same tactics used earlier. According to Whooter if something fits the dictionary's definition of a term, then the fact that it may not fit the legal definition simply does not matter.

Under that standard it is reasonable for a child who is escorted to a program under those conditions kidnapping.

Do you disagree?

Robert, my name is Danny. Would it be OK, if you could answer as Robert.
Thanks.

[RobertBruce]

If I could answer as Robert? I'm not sure what you mean.