The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Froderik]

I fabricated a son

Fucking liar.

I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.

 :roflmao:  :rofl:  :rocker:

[Dysfunction Junction]

I wonder if there are any documented instances of survivors creating fake families so they can share the fake family "program success" with potential marks?  I know this has happened with a program "parent" (not sure if Whooter really is a parent to any non"fabricated" children) here, but I have never heard anyone accusing a survivor of such blatant, self-serving lies used to push an agenda.

I fabricated a son

Personally, I'd have to see something that rises to this level even to give this topic any thought.

[Anne Bonney]

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.

So, no such post exists.  Got it.  Thanks.

[Shadyacres]

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



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Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

[Whooter]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.  If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.  The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?



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[Anne Bonney]

If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

Only to those who have been conditioned by programs to respond to criticism of them the way you have.

You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.

Back when I was in?.....no.  Now?  Maybe.....and I think the cops are smart enough to understand that the people using those words are making....wait for it.....analogies and metaphors.


 

If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.

It's not fantasy.  The description of gulags actually does closely mirror many of these so called "troubled teen" institutions.  You don't like that particular descriptor, but it's not that far off, unfortunately.

 The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?

Well, very often when a program moves into town they set up meetings with various local officials and condition even them to not believe the kids.  And the kids start off 'in the hole', so to speak, by being labeled "troubled" anyway.   So, again.....kids have zero recourse when they are being abused.

[Froderik]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.

[Whooter]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

Well said.

:tup:

[Anne Bonney]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?

But if you are trying to communicate with people who have not been through one of these places then your vocabulary looks foolish.  Amongst yourselves it seems to work fine, but if you are looking for credibility from people who have never been in a program you need to use different words unless you want to be viewed as childish.

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

[shaggys]

I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

[Whooter]

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  I have heard many here state that no one believes them when they tell their story and I am pointing out a huge reason why.  



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[Watchful Yeoman]

I use the term brainwashing to describe what happened to me at Straight inc because that is exactly what happened. I was forced to sit in a chair and stare straight ahead for 12 to 18 hours a day. Even moving my eyes away from the wall for a moment would invite harsh confrontation by staff/group. The only movement allowed was to turn your head to face the person speaking. The conversation in group all day long revolved around how awful we were as "druggies" and how only Straight inc could save us from ourselves. I was 15 and had only smoked a little pot and had a few beers in my whole life up to that point. I was taught that i would die, go insane or be locked in jail if I didn't fully commit myself to Straights' dogma. Every aspect of my life was completely controlled - eating, washing, sleeping, speaking, - everything. After month upon month of this I started believing what Straight was telling me. Eventually I believed EVERYTHING they told me.
It is my understanding that many programs today still use Straight-like methods on kids. It is brainwashing and I will continue to use that term to describe it.

Thanks, shaggys.  This is a horrific description.  I think we also have to bear in mind that because Whooter makes money from programs he has a vested interest in denying any abuse and portraying survivors as "liars."  But, as we all have recently learned, the only confirmed liar here is Whooter who recently admitted to making up a family and a family story of "program success."  I wouldn't worry about convincing this goon about anything because one, in the big picture he's absolutely, utterly meaningless to any of our lives and two, this entire thread is just his way to distract the conversation from his admitted and proven lies (all pro-program and anti-survivor, BTW).

I fabricated a son

Seriously, is anyone here really thinking we have to convince an abject liar like this guy about anything?  I sure don't.  The guy who made up his entire family, complete with fake kids, doesn't require any response about our own credibility.  "I fabricated a son."  For fuck's sake, this guy is not worth explaining anything to.

[Anne Bonney]

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.

[Whooter]

Ok, ok....you've given your little PSA.  Now you can pat yourself on the back for explaining to us and others who have been abused in such programs why we won't be believed by the likes of you.

But isnt that the point?  Dont you want to be believed by non program people or people who have never been inside a program?  

That wouldn't include "the likes of you", which is why I stated it the way I did.

That does include me, also, yes.  Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate between the fantasy part of the post and the reality.  If the child wasnt really kidnapped then was he really abused?  Do you see what I mean?



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