Cataloging TheWho/John Reuben's Lies

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Paul St. John]

Ok.... DJ lets set everything aside for a second here, your PM that said your 250lbs and a MMF fighter and all the PM's where I said I was 230 lbs and a good fighter.
Why am I a dumb fuck here, because I don't have excellent writing skills, I can't articulate as well as you, my expertise does not lie in the Mental Health field so I can't quote therapeutic behavioral methods, I have a different opinion and I voice it and last but not least I am combative.

Damn if this is why well then I'll just remain a dumbfuck.

Danny, why do you keep doing this to yourself?  You did the same thing, when you told me that if I respect the evils of America, You would go fuck yourself and pay for it.  You are putting yourself at the mercy of the poster.

You are also showing a very real problem.  You actually are at the mercy of others.  You want approval.  Don t start telling me about perceptions.  I am trying to help ya here.  Anne Bonney is correct too.  Your insecurity comes across  like a neon light.

Oh and BTW, I am a buck 65, and i ll still kick both of your asses.. LOL ( didn t wanna  be left out)

Paul

Paul

[Paul St. John]

To me, it would not make sense that based on sending one of his kids to a program, and believing that the results were good, he would spend the rest of his life defending programs at Fornits.
Also, he some times talks as though he has so much experience with and extensive knowledge about programs, and yet when I asked him about thier methodology, and theory, he idnstead reported to me the results of the methodology, which tells me that either he does no know, or he does know that I would have tore up the theory/methodology, because it is bullshit...

I don’t even think they work to theories, Paul.  There is nothing that you could tear up.  Programs have a model that they work to.  They measure the outcome and determine how effective their model is and adjust and make changes (based on parent and student feed back) until they have a model that they feel is effective.


Generally models are based on theories, but that s not too important.  Maybe it will become important at some point, but not really right now.
What I asked you about was... you mentioned that many programs now, are designed to bring about self-esteem( please don t ask me for links.. I m not playing that game).  I was wondering what the model or theory they use is to facilitate the development of healthy self-esteem.  From the things that you often write, I thought you may be able to answer the question.  You say that they adapt the model to bear best results based on feedback.  That seems reasonable.


Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.  Many people here watch as ex CEDU people come and go into different programs thinking that they influence the model, but they don’t.  Programs, like any other business, hire people who have experience in the industry but the new hires need to follow the model that the program is working to (not the other way around).  There is a lot of paranoia here on fornits that the industry does things in secret.  But in reality they are more open than most other boarding schools because of the fact that they handle such a specialized type of student body.

You did not respond to the majority of my post.  The part where I asked you what your relationship to any specific program or to programs in general is.  It's as if that part didn t exist.

Can you just answer the question?  Again, if you evade it, it can only be because you are hiding something.

Paul




...

[Ursus]

To me, it would not make sense that based on sending one of his kids to a program, and believing that the results were good, he would spend the rest of his life defending programs at Fornits.

Also, he some times talks as though he has so much experience with and extensive knowledge about programs, and yet when I asked him about thier methodology, and theory, he idnstead reported to me the results of the methodology, which tells me that either he does no know, or he does know that I would have tore up the theory/methodology, because it is bullshit...

I don’t even think they work to theories, Paul.  There is nothing that you could tear up.  Programs have a model that they work to.  They measure the outcome and determine how effective their model is and adjust and make changes (based on parent and student feed back) until they have a model that they feel is effective.

Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.  Many people here watch as ex CEDU people come and go into different programs thinking that they influence the model, but they don’t.  Programs, like any other business, hire people who have experience in the industry but the new hires need to follow the model that the program is working to (not the other way around).  There is a lot of paranoia here on fornits that the industry does things in secret.  But in reality they are more open than most other boarding schools because of the fact that they handle such a specialized type of student body.

Lol. Much of your explanation sounds like it was skimmed off of some PR press release from corporate, intended as info for potential investors. There's a certain kind of language these press releases use -- "model," "outcome measurements," "X% success rate," etc. -- and it is more akin to marketing than it is to a description of any sort of therapeutic process or methodology. This is NOT an accurate description of what actually goes on there on a day-to-day basis; nor does it even begin to touch on program philosophy or ideology or whatever you want to call it. Why would it? It's intended for investors.

[Whooter]

Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.

What are your sources for this figure?  What programs are you referring to?

Link to one of the Studies



...

[Paul St. John]

and doesn't even begin to touch on program philosophy or ideology or whatever you want to call it.

I am fully aware of that.  He either does not know what the theory, model, philosophy, ideaology, etc. is, or he doesn t want to take a risk in putting out there.

I am only acknowledging that the feedback thing sounds reasonable.  Perhaps, not exceptional, but reasonable...

Ursus, you say that what he said  is false.. Do you have knowledge of the treatment center that his daughter attended?

Paul

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

Generally models are based on theories, but that s not too important. Maybe it will become important at some point, but not really right now.
What I asked you about was... you mentioned that many programs now, are designed to bring about self-esteem( please don t ask me for links.. I m not playing that game). I was wondering what the model or theory they use is to facilitate the development of healthy self-esteem. From the things that you often write, I thought you may be able to answer the question. You say that they adapt the model to bear best results based on feedback. That seems reasonable.

I really don’t know the ins and outs of the various models.  My background is in   engineering not therapy.  In a nutshell they work with the kids and insure they pick goals that they can be successful at and work on building their self esteem.

You did not respond to the majority of my post. The part where I asked you what your relationship to any specific program or to programs in general is. It's as if that part didn t exist.

Can you just answer the question? Again, if you evade it, it can only be because you are hiding something.

I was not purposely skipping your question.  I am a parent who had a child in Wilderness and ASR.



...

[DannyB II]

I haven t been around during all this "The Who", and "Whooter" -shit.

I am assuming that he works for some prgram... and I did see that posted somewhere today.  Has he ever said that?  Or is tat just an assumption.

To me, it would not make sense that based on sending one of his kids to a program, and believing that the results were good, he would spend the rest of his life defending programs at Fornits.
Also, he some times talks as though he has so much experience with and extensive knowledge about programs, and yet when I asked him about thier methodology, and theory, he idnstead reported to me the results of the methodology, which tells me that either he does no know, or he does know that I would have tore up the theory/methodology, because it is bullshit...


Hey, Whooter, who are you?

What are past and present relationships to programs( specific programs or generally speaking)?

Can you answer these questions?  They are very straight-forward.

And if you are on the up and up, you will want to answer them.  If you evade, then you are clearly hiding something.....

Paul St. John

PS Any input from other fornits posters?  facts please... no baseless accusations..

And Danny, if you think that Elan is so bad, and you want to expose it and shut it down, why do you spend all your time defending programs you know nothing about, and almost no time talking about the evils of Elan?

You never answered me B4.  Are you standing by your statement that your sole purpose here is to make suer that TC's get a fair trial, or will you just admit that that was a convenient thing to say at the time, so that we can move past it?

lill johnny I have already had you in my class, nothing more I can teach ya dude. Your a cocky guy who knows everything. So I handed you off to the whootman, maybe with his patience he can get through your thick head.
Oh by the way instead of asking your (I am so smart look at me) questions, listen for a while.

Danny

[Ursus]

Ursus, you say that what he said  is false.. Do you have knowledge of the treatment center that his daughter attended?

I did not say it was "false." Perhaps I could have used a better choice of words. What I said was:

"This is NOT an accurate description of what actually goes on there on a day-to-day basis; nor does it even

begin to touch on program philosophy or ideology or whatever you want to call it. Why would it? It's intended for investors."[/list]

What I had meant to convey was: despite your request that he would give an accurate description of methodology or of ideology, he instead chose not to provide any description or info of that sort at all.

[Whooter]

Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.

What are your sources for this figure?  What programs are you referring to?

Link to one of the Studies



...

And don't forget..... (You didn't post the findings below.  Are these the figures your referring to?)

Though reported outcomes vary widely,  ranging from about 25 % to 80%, reviews suggest that 60%-80% of adolescents improve during residential treatment

A review is anything concrete, so people generally take it with a grain of salt.

And thats okay, Joel, thats the beauty of the internet, information and living in America.  If you have information that you think would negate the results of the study you can contact the company that approved the study and audited the results to insure there was not conflict of interest etc.  If they feel your info is justified then they will report on it.
We will wait for any changes that result, just let us know.



Oversight Company



...

[Paul St. John]

Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.

What are your sources for this figure?  What programs are you referring to?

Link to one of the Studies



...

And don't forget..... (You didn't post the findings below.  Are these the figures your referring to?)

Though reported outcomes vary widely,  ranging from about 25 % to 80%, reviews suggest that 60%-80% of adolescents improve during residential treatment

A review is anything concrete, so people generally take it with a grain of salt.

One way or another, I can t accept any of this... Just because of personal experience.

How do you know that a person improved?
It is not an easy thing to measure.

On face value many people leaving daytop would have been considered by many to have improved.  I know that A. they hadn t, and B. they were supposed to look like they did.  That s what it was all about.  It was about selling a product.

"We took your druggy and made a responsible member of society out of them."

having see this, how cold I possibly accept these results, without knowing EVERYTHING about it.

At the time, when I was in daytop, the monsignor or whatever he was had a book on the market called something like " The Daytop Method".  It claimed very largely across the front of the book, that Daytop had an 85 percent success rating..

Yet anyone you asked in Daytop, co-ordinator or whom ever, would say that most people go into Daytop using drugs.. and don t start their real drug taking career til after leaving, and of the people who left the program and came back, when I was there, this was clearly true.

I always thought it was funny.. They always said it like "Oh .. It s just one of those things"
They knew they were owned... most of them.  I just couldn t understand why they didn t care..

Paul

[Paul St. John]

Ursus, you say that what he said  is false.. Do you have knowledge of the treatment center that his daughter attended?

I did not say it was "false." Perhaps I could have used a better choice of words. What I said was:

"This is NOT an accurate description of what actually goes on there on a day-to-day basis; nor does it even

begin to touch on program philosophy or ideology or whatever you want to call it. Why would it? It's intended for investors."[/list]

What I had meant to convey was: despite your request that he would give an accurate description of methodology or of ideology, he instead chose not to provide any description or info of that sort at all.

Oh.. Okay.. I thought you meant that on a day to day basis, they do NOT adjust their model.. etc.

Paul

[Paul St. John]

I haven t been around during all this "The Who", and "Whooter" -shit.

I am assuming that he works for some prgram... and I did see that posted somewhere today.  Has he ever said that?  Or is tat just an assumption.

To me, it would not make sense that based on sending one of his kids to a program, and believing that the results were good, he would spend the rest of his life defending programs at Fornits.
Also, he some times talks as though he has so much experience with and extensive knowledge about programs, and yet when I asked him about thier methodology, and theory, he idnstead reported to me the results of the methodology, which tells me that either he does no know, or he does know that I would have tore up the theory/methodology, because it is bullshit...


Hey, Whooter, who are you?

What are past and present relationships to programs( specific programs or generally speaking)?

Can you answer these questions?  They are very straight-forward.

And if you are on the up and up, you will want to answer them.  If you evade, then you are clearly hiding something.....

Paul St. John

PS Any input from other fornits posters?  facts please... no baseless accusations..

And Danny, if you think that Elan is so bad, and you want to expose it and shut it down, why do you spend all your time defending programs you know nothing about, and almost no time talking about the evils of Elan?

You never answered me B4.  Are you standing by your statement that your sole purpose here is to make suer that TC's get a fair trial, or will you just admit that that was a convenient thing to say at the time, so that we can move past it?

lill johnny I have already had you in my class, nothing more I can teach ya dude. Your a cocky guy who knows everything. So I handed you off to the whootman, maybe with his patience he can get through your thick head.
Oh by the way instead of asking your (I am so smart look at me) questions, listen for a while.

Danny

LOL!  Danny you are so funny!  Really!  Don t you know that everyone can see right through?  This is not a pissing contest..

Hey when did you hand me off to Whooter... Was it when I decided of my own volition to converse with him?

Paul

[DannyB II]

To me, it would not make sense that based on sending one of his kids to a program, and believing that the results were good, he would spend the rest of his life defending programs at Fornits.

Also, he some times talks as though he has so much experience with and extensive knowledge about programs, and yet when I asked him about thier methodology, and theory, he idnstead reported to me the results of the methodology, which tells me that either he does no know, or he does know that I would have tore up the theory/methodology, because it is bullshit...

I don’t even think they work to theories, Paul.  There is nothing that you could tear up.  Programs have a model that they work to.  They measure the outcome and determine how effective their model is and adjust and make changes (based on parent and student feed back) until they have a model that they feel is effective.

Right now some programs are experiencing about an 80 % or better success rate.  Many people here watch as ex CEDU people come and go into different programs thinking that they influence the model, but they don’t.  Programs, like any other business, hire people who have experience in the industry but the new hires need to follow the model that the program is working to (not the other way around).  There is a lot of paranoia here on fornits that the industry does things in secret.  But in reality they are more open than most other boarding schools because of the fact that they handle such a specialized type of student body.

Lol. Much of your explanation sounds like it was skimmed off of some PR press release from corporate, intended as info for potential investors. There's a certain kind of language these press releases use -- "model," "outcome measurements," "X% success rate," etc. -- and it is more akin to marketing than it is to a description of any sort of therapeutic process or methodology. This is NOT an accurate description of what actually goes on there on a day-to-day basis; nor does it even begin to touch on program philosophy or ideology or whatever you want to call it. Why would it? It's intended for investors.

Now Ursus I know most of this rebuttal is your opinion and that is fine. I have some questions if you don't mind, where did you get the concrete information that he works as a consultant for Investors, another do you find whooters presence here to be offensive as Samara stated in her post yesterday, where do your credentials come in, are you in the TC industry because you come across like your very educated in the field of Behavioral Therapy.
Not playing games here would just like to know a little about you, your thoughts and assumptions.

danny