New Fornits Rules/Constitution [Ratified]

[Anne Bonney]

I believe he had two children that attended programs.  One went to ASR and the other to HLA.  One of the children committed suicide years after graduation.  It appears that the school helped this child if you read his BIO.  If you are trying to relate the boys suicide to the school I am not sure how this can be done.  The child may have had issues prior to attending (which is probable) and the school help him coup with these... he graduated and was successful and then committed suicide years later.  There could have been many contributing factors.. mother dying, girlfriend, depression, depression medication  etc.

Yeah, you've said that.  A lot.  I promise I've heard you each and every time.

A father turning his child's death into a money making machine really makes that parent look bad.

This is very common to try to help other children when you have lost your own.  He has built a non profit to assist families who cannot afford to send their children to get help.  How can that possibly make someone look bad.

Because it's not "helping".  Aspen facilities have proven to be abusive and they have even admitted in court that they don't provide any treatment.  Look....IMO, at the very least HLA/ASR didn't help and at worst, it exacerbated any  problems the kid may have had, given the abusive methods those two particular places use(d) and seeing how HLA was shut down amidst abuse accusations and lawsuits, just like Straight.  They get caught, shut down and then re-open under a different name, using the same sick fucking "therapeutic" methods.  You obviously don't see a problem with "this guy" making his living (this time) on the back of his dead child.  I do.  It utterly disgusts me.

And I'd love to see how truly "not for profit" this referral business is.

[Whooter]

Because it's not "helping". Aspen facilities have proven to be abusive and they have even admitted in court that they don't provide any treatment. Look....IMO, at the very least HLA/ASR didn't help and at worst, it exacerbated any problems the kid may have had, given the abusive methods those two particular places use(d) and seeing how HLA was shut down amidst abuse accusations and lawsuits, just like Straight. They get caught, shut down and then re-open under a different name, using the same sick fucking "therapeutic" methods. You obviously don't see a problem with "this guy" making his living (this time) on the back of his dead child. I do. It utterly disgusts me.

Teachers and public schools have been proven to be abusive also.  

IMO, Anne, both boys were helped by their stay at the programs they attended.  If we could establish that the kids had no problems prior to entering ASR/HLA and then they killed themselves right after they got out then yes I could see your point.  But both kids went on to be successful after graduation.
Many people who have witnessed a loved one being helped want to help other people who are less fortunate get help for their families.  It is very common.

And I'd love to see how truly "not for profit" this referral business is.

There are laws which govern non profits.  I belief, also, that the books are open to the public for non profit businesses.  So we could find out if we wanted to.



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[Anne Bonney]

Just as a side note...STICC has taken in hundreds of thousands of dollars to "help kids" but do you know how many they actually "helped"?  Three.  Three kids in six years of operation, yet they keep raking in the donations.  Smells like a fraud to me.

Ahh.....I was just wondering about that.

[Froderik]

Laws
1. If a thread already exists on a topic, use it, rather than start a new one.
2. Don't derail threads by changing the topic. Start a new topic.
3. No outing of home addresses or phone numbers without a person's consent.  This includes linking to such information.
4. Post your topics in the appropriate forum, with an appropriate name.
5. Multiple usernames are disallowed if you use them for sockpuppetry. Sockpuppets will be outed.
6. No attacking other posters with insults (this includes driving parents off). You can make your point with civility.  Responding to an insult with an insult is not a justification.
7. Impersonation of another poster or living person is not allowed, unless it is obvious parody.  The standard is this: if a stupid person could mistake the identity to be that of the parodied, it's a violation.  You may either agree to have such an account labeled as "parody" or have it deleted.
8. One unmoderated forum will remain (open free for all) however it will be opt-in, similar to the drama box.


Bill of Rights
1. You have the right to your opinion, however unpopular.  You will not be disciplined for your opinions so long their expression stays within the rules of the forum.
2. You have a right to an impartial moderation.  If you get into an argument with a moderator, that moderator may not punish you and must rely on the judgement of another moderator.
3. You have the right to an appeal.  If you feel you were treated unjustly by one of our moderators you have the right to request an appeal.  A panel of moderators will go over your case and make a decision affirming or overturning the decision.  Affirmations must be unanimous.
4. You have a right to be informed of all correspondance concerning your case.
5. You have the right to privacy.  You have the right to create a second or third account for the purposes of retaining anonymity.

Penalties:

You will be informed if you violate a rule.  If repeated violation occur, your account may be disabled temporarily.  After your account is enabled again, you will be considered on a probationary period.  If further violations occur, you may be banned permanently.

This constitution only applies to postings from this point on.

I'll be editing this rough draft as we come up with ideas. I welcome feedback. Just so we're clear, once these rules are finalized, they'll apply to everybody regardless of their opinions or group affiliation.

 :bump:

[Anne Bonney]

Teachers and public schools have been proven to be abusive also.  

So?  You say this a lot too.  We hear you each time.  The abuse there isn't systemic, as it is in LGAT using programs such as HLA and ASR.

IMO, Anne, both boys were helped by their stay at the programs they attended.  If we could establish that the kids had no problems prior to entering ASR/HLA and then they killed themselves right after they got out then yes I could see your point.  But both kids went on to be successful after graduation.
Many people who have witnessed a loved one being helped want to help other people who are less fortunate get help for their families.  It is very common.

Problem is, as I said...HLA was shut down amidst abuse and lawsuits and ASR has no place "treating" anyone who truly has problems since they admit that they provide no treatment at all.

Again, you don't have a problem with someone making their living off the death of their child, even going to extent of using the obituary for the poor kid to do it.....I do.

[Whooter]

So?  You say this a lot too.  We hear you each time.  The abuse there isn't systemic, as it is in LGAT using programs such as HLA and ASR.

We hear each other each time.  It is repeated because we both disagree with each other and reiterate our points for clarification purposes.  I dont think abuse in programs are systemic.  I know that you do.

Problem is, as I said...HLA was shut down amidst abuse and lawsuits and ASR has no place "treating" anyone who truly has problems since they admit that they provide no treatment at all.

I have never read where ASR stated they dont provide treatment.  If you read the argument the lawyer stated that a specific school did not provide treatment to a specific child.  At some schools (ASR was one) the parents had an option of having their child see and independent therapist.  If the parents opted out of this then Aspen would not be providing this child treatment in this area.
But we can go back and forth with the wording.  But getting back to the boys suicide, in my opinion it is very unlikely that his time at ASR had anything to do with this.  It occurred years after-wards and may have been caused by many other variables.  I think many like yourself would like to tie it back to the school but I don't see how that could be done.  The boys mother was dying at the time, I believe, I am sure this could be a bigger factor.

Again, you don't have a problem with someone making their living off the death of their child, even going to extent of using the obituary for the poor kid to do it.....I do.

He started a non profit, Anne.  Some people run for cancer if their mother or loved one dies and help raise money for treatment.  Some start non profits to raise money to get others help when they cant afford it.  You are reading things into this person motive in my opinion.



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[Troll Control]

Find that cat yet?

[RobertBruce]

Look Bruce, you and "Controlling Troll" should form a club or something.  You have both gone over the edge.  You are chasing a ghost in your own mind.  I am not going to debate you on information you fabricated in your head or "screen shots" of PM's that "Controlling Troll" photo shopped.  Its nutty stuff.  No one really cares, I dont.

I agree with Danny that its not right to obsess over this guy and his son who committed suicide.  You guys had your fun of outing me and trying to make people think you knew who I was, but its over.  Try to have some decency,  these attacks on him really make you look bad.

When and If you guys are interested in the issues of the TTI then I will be willing to respond in kind.



...

Again Whooter, given your insider perspective you would be a good source for conversation, but you're too set on disruption over dialoug. You constantly admonish others to, 'contribute something', yet what do you ever actually contribute? You refuse to stand behind your own comments, you disrupt and troll the forums by posting under various guises and attempting to attack posters who disagree with you from the shadows. When you can't find anyone to play with you simply troll yourself. You refuse to answer questions about your own positions and make ridiculus demands of others before you'll acknowledge the most basic of truths. There are plenty of people here like you who are here for no other reason other than to play games, but at least they're honest about it. Why aren't you?

[RobertBruce]

We hear each other each time. It is repeated because we both disagree with each other and reiterate our points for clarification purposes. I dont think abuse in programs are systemic. I know that you do.

Then why do the same people with the same (proven) abusive treatment plans crop up again and again? Why are these places being shut down? Why is lawsuit after lawsuit being filed against these places?

[Evil WWASP]

So?  You say this a lot too.  We hear you each time.  The abuse there isn't systemic, as it is in LGAT using programs such as HLA and ASR.

We hear each other each time.  It is repeated because we both disagree with each other and reiterate our points for clarification purposes.  I dont think abuse in programs are systemic.  I know that you do.

Problem is, as I said...HLA was shut down amidst abuse and lawsuits and ASR has no place "treating" anyone who truly has problems since they admit that they provide no treatment at all.

I have never read where ASR stated they dont provide treatment.  If you read the argument the lawyer stated that a specific school did not provide treatment to a specific child.  At some schools (ASR was one) the parents had an option of having their child see and independent therapist.  If the parents opted out of this then Aspen would not be providing this child treatment in this area.
But we can go back and forth with the wording.  But getting back to the boys suicide, in my opinion it is very unlikely that his time at ASR had anything to do with this.  It occurred years after-wards and may have been caused by many other variables.  I think many like yourself would like to tie it back to the school but I don't see how that could be done.  The boys mother was dying at the time, I believe, I am sure this could be a bigger factor.

Again, you don't have a problem with someone making their living off the death of their child, even going to extent of using the obituary for the poor kid to do it.....I do.

He started a non profit, Anne.  Some people run for cancer if their mother or loved one dies and help raise money for treatment.  Some start non profits to raise money to get others help when they cant afford it.  You are reading things into this person motive in my opinion.



...

All that has to be proved to show John D Reuben mudered his son is that did the following to him:
have him kidnapped (http://www.nospank.net/labi.htm) held prisoner,
held prisoner (http://www.cafety.org/privately-funded- ... april-2005)
held prisoner withou without due process (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/FrontPage.html)
held prisoner incommunicado (http://www.insidecostarica.com/specialr ... h_love.htm)
and/ or Mike Reuben was abused post imprisonment (google abuse, cult, torture, academy swift river and/or mount bachelor academy, aspen education group, Synanon, CEDU and you'll find he was, and see the patterns...)

The level of torture and abuse hinted at above causes brain damage, social marginilization and alientation, and despair..the sort of thing that causes youth (Mike was barely olf enough to drink) to kill themselves. An enterprizing prosecutor would make a case against John D. Reuben.  Maybe Max could be contacted for help?

[Whooter]

All that has to be proved to show John D Reuben mudered his son is that did the following to him:
have him kidnapped (http://www.nospank.net/labi.htm) held prisoner,

Kidnapping would be a federal offense and would be on record already so we can take this off the table.

held prisoner (http://www.cafety.org/privately-funded- ... april-2005)

Again with the helicopters and search lights.. we need more drama.  Throw in the word Gulag and you might get someones attention.  No prison no prisoner.  Next…..

held prisoner withou without due process (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/FrontPage.html)

Oh, brother, due process again.  Can you provide a link to this?  You link doesn’t address this law in Massachusetts or any other state.  Sorry doesn’t stick… next.

held prisoner incommunicado (http://www.insidecostarica.com/specialr ... h_love.htm)

Again with the prisoner thing?  Incommunicado?  Whoops you link goes to Cost Rica.  They have phones down there.  You should have goggled first.

was abused post imprisonment (google abuse, cult, torture, academy swift river and/or mount bachelor academy, aspen education group and you'll find he was)

Oh no more abuse words.  His son was fine and did very well at ASR.  You lack any facts at all.  You are linking to various sites that don’t apply.

The level of torture and abuse hinted at above causes brain damage, social marginilization and alientation, and despair..the sort of thing that causes kids to kill themselves. An enterprizing prosecutor would make a case against John D. Reuben. Maybe Max could be contacted for help?

Oh no!! torture and brain damage from going to a boarding school!!  We should call 20/20 to do a news story!  They would be catapulted to the top of the ratings if only you had something credible..

Sorry EvilWWASP.  But the links added some credibility until people clicked on them.  I liked the drama touch.  Intersperse the words Gulag, prison, torture and kidnapping more it will get the parents attention and add credibility.



...

[RobertBruce]

So then Whooter, how do you feel about the use of escorts to "deliver" kids to theraputic boarding schools. Is this legal?

[DannyB II]

So?  You say this a lot too.  We hear you each time.  The abuse there isn't systemic, as it is in LGAT using programs such as HLA and ASR.

We hear each other each time.  It is repeated because we both disagree with each other and reiterate our points for clarification purposes.  I dont think abuse in programs are systemic.  I know that you do.

Problem is, as I said...HLA was shut down amidst abuse and lawsuits and ASR has no place "treating" anyone who truly has problems since they admit that they provide no treatment at all.

I have never read where ASR stated they dont provide treatment.  If you read the argument the lawyer stated that a specific school did not provide treatment to a specific child.  At some schools (ASR was one) the parents had an option of having their child see and independent therapist.  If the parents opted out of this then Aspen would not be providing this child treatment in this area.
But we can go back and forth with the wording.  But getting back to the boys suicide, in my opinion it is very unlikely that his time at ASR had anything to do with this.  It occurred years after-wards and may have been caused by many other variables.  I think many like yourself would like to tie it back to the school but I don't see how that could be done.  The boys mother was dying at the time, I believe, I am sure this could be a bigger factor.

Again, you don't have a problem with someone making their living off the death of their child, even going to extent of using the obituary for the poor kid to do it.....I do.

He started a non profit, Anne.  Some people run for cancer if their mother or loved one dies and help raise money for treatment.  Some start non profits to raise money to get others help when they cant afford it.  You are reading things into this person motive in my opinion.



...

All that has to be proved to show John D Reuben mudered his son is that did the following to him:
have him kidnapped (http://www.nospank.net/labi.htm) held prisoner,
held prisoner (http://www.cafety.org/privately-funded- ... april-2005)
held prisoner withou without due process (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/FrontPage.html)
held prisoner incommunicado (http://www.insidecostarica.com/specialr ... h_love.htm)
and/ or Mike Reuben was abused post imprisonment (google abuse, cult, torture, academy swift river and/or mount bachelor academy, aspen education group, Synanon, CEDU and you'll find he was, and see the patterns...)

The level of torture and abuse hinted at above causes brain damage, social marginilization and alientation, and despair..the sort of thing that causes youth (Mike was barely olf enough to drink) to kill themselves. An enterprizing prosecutor would make a case against John D. Reuben.  Maybe Max could be contacted for help?

You have absolutely no proof at all that this happened to Mike nor are you educated in the forensics of anatomy, psychiatry nor anything else. These are just bold statements being hurled around, no problem I do it myself and I am reminded repetitively by y'all they are anecdotal.

[RobertBruce]

We know that he was incarcerated in a program, and we know that same program did nothing to help him with his problems. So what's the question?

[DannyB II]

We know that he was incarcerated in a program, and we know that same program did nothing to help him with his problems. So what's the question?

Oh, Jeesh, boy that and a quarter still won't get you a cup of coffee. Robert your right, there is no question because you have no point.
Incarcerated, "no" and the program helping probably not