AA Mythology on Fornits

[DannyB II]

DannyB II wrote:
Here on fornits,  Pys, Ginger, Ursus, Anne and others will quote various sources when talking about AA. Especially when talking about the, "disease concept". Those sources are Orange Papers and the Hazelton studies.

Well I like to counters those myths with accurate honest statements from one of the co-founders mouth and AA (GSO) Board.
Presented here is some excerpts of Bill Wilson (co-founder AA) said and AA as a whole.

Disease concept of alcoholism
Main article: Disease theory of alcoholism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

More informally than not, AA's membership has helped popularize the disease concept of alcoholism, though AA officially has had no part in the development of such postulates, which appeared as early as the late eighteenth century.[44] Though AA initially avoided the term "disease", in 1973 conference-approved literature categorically stated that "we had the disease of alcoholism."[45] Regardless of official positions, from AA's inception most members have believed alcoholism to be a disease.[9]

DannyB II wrote:
Members have promoted this idea, disease. There are just as many who don't believe in such quackery. The term "disease" is not officially sponsored by AA. I will say this also they don't tell there members what to do or say.

1973, was a time of transition for AA it was moving into the treatment industry, Bill Wilson had died 2 years earlier 1971. I strongly doubt that Bill Wilson would have idly stood by as AA went down the drain being forced into treatment centers.  

 

While cautious in regarding the medical nature of alcoholism, AA has let others voice opinions. The Big Book states "we are told that alcoholism "is an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. " Ernest Kurtz says this is "The closest the book Alcoholics Anonymous comes to a definition of alcoholism."[9] In his introduction to The Big Book, non-member Dr. William Silkworth suggested that those unable to moderate their drinking have an allergy. However, AA said, "The doctor’s theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little." [8] In fact AA later acknowledged that "alcoholism is not a true allergy, the experts now inform us."[46] Wilson explained in 1960 why he avoided using the term "disease":

    "We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer term for us to use."[47]

[DannyB II]

Another Myth by fornits; Folks are forced to go to AA by the courts.  

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

Court rulings:
United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.[71] In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend AA.

[DannyB II]

Myth that AA supports AA in Treatment Centers; The Treatment Industry and AA

American treatment industry

Although Alcoholics Anonymous does not endorse and is not allied with any outside facility, since 1949 when Hazelden treatment center was founded by some AA members, alcoholic rehabilitation clinics have frequently incorporated precepts of the AA program into their own treatment programs.[74] A reverse influence has also occurred, as AA receives 31% of its membership from treatment center referrals.

[DannyB II]

Psy, this one is for you. This may explain the drinking dilemma you think is lumped all into one. I say read the fucking book people or STFU.

Moderation or abstinence

    For more details on this topic, see Alcoholism: Management

Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown" alcoholics.[76] Along with Nancy Shute, Peele has advocated that besides AA, other options should be available to problem drinkers who can manage their drinking with the right treatment.[77] The Big Book, however, acknowledges "moderate drinkers" and "a certain type of hard drinker" able to stop or moderate their drinking. The Big Book suggests no program for these drinkers, but instead seeks to help drinkers without "power of choice in drink."[/u]

[DannyB II]

The cult idea and other ridiculous assumptions about AA.

Cultural identity

One review of AA warned of detrimental iatrogenic effects of twelve-step philosophy and concluded that AA uses many methods that are also used by cults.[79] A subsequent study concluded, however, that AA's program bore little semblance to religious cults because the techniques used appeared beneficial.[80] Another difference is that, unlike what happens in cults, AA does not seek to prevent a member leaving or renouncing the movement. In this regard there is complete freedom. Another study found that the AA program's focus on admission of having a problem increases deviant stigma and strips members of their previous cultural identity, replacing it with the deviant identity.[81] A survey of group members, however, found they had a bicultural identity and saw AA's program as a complement to their other national, ethnic, and religious cultures.[82]
[edit] Other criticisms

    * "Thirteenth-stepping" is a disparaging euphemism referring to AA members who approach new members for dates or sex. The Journal of Addiction Nursing reported that 50% of the women that participated in a survey (55 in all) experienced 13-stepping behavior from others.[83] To avoid this type of behavior, AA suggests that typically men be sponsored by men and women be sponsored by women.[84]

    * Arthur H. Cain in 1963 said that AA members rely too heavily on dogmatic slogans and become overly dependent on the group. He also said AA "has turned into a religious movement — and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many alcoholics who need a different kind of help."[85]

I agree with Arthur H. Cain, AA members do allow themselves to do silly things.

[DannyB II]

Another Myth AA does surveys, we do for AA.

Surveys of AA members
 Results from Triennial Surveys

To help answer questions about AA's effectiveness, the 1968 AA General Service Conference unanimously voted to begin surveying those participating in AA.[4] A survey was conducted beginning that year and subsequent surveys have been conducted about every three years (triennially), the latest of which was in conducted in 2007 and published in 2008.[4][6][7][8][9] The basic results of the surveys are made available in pamphlet form to AA members. Additional comments and analysis intended for academic and professional audiences were written to supplement the survey results from 1970 to 1990.[4] Non-alcoholic Board of Trustee Member, Dr. John [Jack] Norris wrote the second and third analyses. The second was presented at the North American Congress on Alcohol and Drug Problems,[10] the third was presented at the International Congress on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence.[11]

AA stop this gift and not soon enough for me. Thank god folks with more wisdom, then the idiot that was advertising our info and breaking one of our sacred traditions stepped in and stopped this.

The 1990 analysis found that from 1977 to 1989 around one quarter (26%) of those who first attend an AA meeting are still attending after one year. Nearly one third (31.5%) leave the program after one month, and by the end of the third month, just over half (52.6%) have left.[12] In the previous surveys this group (those remaining active for ninety days) would be the only ones considered to have "tried AA."[4] After the first year, the rate of attrition slows. The nature of the survey questions asked did not allow a direct comparison between the twelfth month of the first year and the first month of the second year. Only those in the first year were recorded by month.[12] The necessity of an introductory period was not considered in the 1990 analysis, and the concept was not present in its analysis.[4]

The analyses published from 1970 to 1987 considered an introductory period of ninety days, during which time a "newcomer" regularly attended meetings, was necessary before a newcomer was considered to have "tried AA."[4] If a participant with a desire to stop drinking voluntarily sought assistance in AA for that length of time but ultimately found AA to be unhelpful and dropped out, that would be considered a sign of failure.[4] Of the alcoholics who stayed following the introductory period,[4] the results of the Triennial Surveys approximately fit the rule of thumb suggested in the second edition of Alcoholics Anonymous;[13] of alcoholics who "really tried" to follow the AA program "50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed with Alcoholics Anonymous showed improvement."[4]

People may participate in AA for less than ninety days for several reasons. For instance, they may do so under the coercion of a recovery/treatment program, employee assistance program, or as mandated by a court. Similarly, they may do so in response to an ultimatum of a family member or friend and chose to attend meetings rather than deal with the consequence. Some may also attend AA because they have an alcoholic family member or friend and are curious about the organization, they are students seeking information about alcoholism, or they are participating in multiple twelve-step programs but not primarily in AA. Others attend and then determine other methods such as harm reduction are more appropriate for them.[4]

About 40% of the members sober for less than a year will remain another year. About 80% of those sober less than five years will remain sober and active in the fellowship another year. About 90% of the members sober five years or more will remain sober and active in the fellowship another year, however the survey states that this information does not predict the number that will remain sober, and those who remain sober but not in the fellowship cannot be calculated. These figures have been repeated within a few percentage points using the same calculations since 1974.[12]

While AA has continued to publish member surveys, they have not published any parallel commentary or analysis of the surveys since 1990.[4] A paper, however, was self-published in 2008 by three independent authors (not endorsed by AA) clarifying the 1990 commentary.

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Reiterating the point made above, AA does not do surveys.

[DannyB II]

The effectiveness of AA, That is what everyone wants to know here. Is it successful. Well go to a meeting and ask one Alcoholic and you will have your answer. That is how it works.
 

The effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous, the success of the Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) twelve step program in treating alcoholism, is a subject of ongoing interdisciplinary research and debate in a multitude of academic and non-academic contexts.

Analytical definitions of effectiveness, efficacy and success vary according to the particular field of reference investigating the practices, methods and prognoses of treating alcoholics, and in what terms these concepts are framed in individual studies. Experimental studies into the effectiveness of AA have been based either on results obtained from individuals attending meetings run under the umbrella of the AA organization itself, or from similar twelve-step recovery programmes based on the twelve-step approach run externally from the AA organization; generically termed, in this latter case, as twelve-step facilitation (TSF).

Studies of both implementations of the therapeutic model have in general not yielded definitive evidence of efficacy when assessed in terms of long-term prevention of problem drinking as compared to other treatments[1][2], although limitations are widely acknowledged in obtaining acceptable data due to the difficulty in applying experimental controls to clinical analyses of AA, such as adequate placebo control and uniformity of the delivered therapy[3]. Alcoholics Anonymous itself, in describing results of subjective report surveys undertaken internally in its Triennial Surveys, claims an approximate membership retention of 26% after twelve months from initial attendance — an adherence rate comparable to, or better than, those found in studies of other addiction therapy treatments[4].

[shaggys]

Warned ya hero, so let the games begin. Everyone reading the posts here by dannyBII should be aware that he supports child abuse in the name of drug treatment. He has abused children himself as a staff member at some drug "treatment" gulag and would love to do it some more. Yeah entrust a junkie with your kids future. I dont think so.

[DannyB II]

Warned ya hero, so let the games begin. Everyone reading the posts here by dannyBII should be aware that he supports child abuse in the name of drug treatment. He has abused children himself as a staff member at some drug "treatment" gulag and would love to do it some more. Yeah entrust a junkie with your kids future. I dont think so.

You warned me, my god is this life you keep telling me about allow you to act like you are psychotic, I guess it does.

Yes I abused children as a child. Some of these children were older then I, a friend called me to state this fact. He was one of the so called children you are talking about. If you have read anything you would have seen I was 17 as staff and left at 19. Ya, go run with that there big guy.

So there ya go shaggy, go get yourself some Danny butt.

[psy]

My responses to

Post 1:
llness is a synonym for disease.

Post 2:
I never claimed it was legal to order people to attend AA. I said it was common despite it's blatantly unconstitutional nature.  Sure people can sue, but until people start doing that en-masse the practice is not going to change.

Post 3:
AA supports AA in treatment centers like Christianity supports Christianity in Churches.  I never claimed the organization itself owned or operated treatment centers.

Post 4:
I never claimed AA attempts to claim that everybody who drinks is an alcoholic.  However in AA there is a saying that "if drinking causes you problems you have a drinking problem," is there not?  I could list a few more.  I'd say Stanton Peele is on the money, as he usually is.

Post 5:
You provided more support than refutation for the cult idea in your examples.  I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Sure some argue that though AA does use thought reform it's not a *destructive* cult-like group because it's for a good purpose (successful recovery) but if there is no real success (and "sacred traditions" to prevent examination of the claims of success) that argument falls apart.

Post 6:
Danny.  We've linked to AA surveys on AA's own website in the past and still you refuse to believe.  It's funny.  You quote text saying "AA has continued to publish member surveys" and follow your commentary with "AA does not do surveys"  You're a parody of yourself, you really are, as is your crap about your "sacred traditions".  And you're trying to convince others that AA is not some sort of cult or religion?  You have a "sacred tradition" that you won't study the effectiveness of your religion lest it be proven objectively false.  Hahahahahaha.

Post 7:
The evidence you post would seem to indicate AA does not work.  I agree with you completely that AA members will swear it works, but so do people who go to fortune tellers, douse for water, or practice scientology.  Like in those examples, evidence often contradicts the anecdotes.

[justonemore]

Psy.. I've worked  contract for enforcement and corrections for some time. I keep posting here because I want to understand the mind-set, and frankly, I don;t. your tag and your posts indicate you have some knowledge and experience in folks like these.
I've been faced with folk like 'cowboy' who knew he'd done wrong, was willling to make it up, was a good guy to work with,m and 'crack-baby' who would kill you easily, was dangerous all the time, and saw nothing wrong in what he did.The only two characteristics i see ( in commonality) with true-facts bad-guys are A) a lack of remorse, and B) a lack of genuine laughter.
In my work with enforcement, I loved U.S. Customs best, Coasties second, and Marshalls  third. I loved them in order of their humour, which to me was an accurate measure of their professionalism.( my survival probability)
I think danny B is F/U, and i'd like to know your opinion.J.O.M.

[DannyB II]

Psy.. I've worked  contract for enforcement and corrections for some time. I keep posting here because I want to understand the mind-set, and frankly, I don;t. your tag and your posts indicate you have some knowledge and experience in folks like these.
I've been faced with folk like 'cowboy' who knew he'd done wrong, was willling to make it up, was a good guy to work with,m and 'crack-baby' who would kill you easily, was dangerous all the time, and saw nothing wrong in what he did.The only two characteristics i see ( in commonality) with true-facts bad-guys are A) a lack of remorse, and B) a lack of genuine laughter.
In my work with enforcement, I loved U.S. Customs best, Coasties second, and Marshalls  third. I loved them in order of their humour, which to me was an accurate measure of their professionalism.( my survival probability)
I think danny B is F/U, and i'd like to know your opinion.J.O.M.

Thanks sweetie, just so ya know your getting that witticism back....could keep you alive. I love sweethearts around here who loved to express there bravado, JOM, I worked with the Coasties, U.S.Customs, Marshalls, DEA, FBI around service men, insinuates involvement with the CIA.
Dude would you kindly just STFU, please. NOBODY BUT NOBODY!!!!!! That had any involvement at all with any of these agencies would pronounce it on a Troubled Teen Web Site, Fucking snap out of your grandiose fantasy your tripping on.
Jesus Christ you fuck'in whack job.
What is the matter with you folks here, I feel like I'm back over seas in Okinawa with the Marines.

[justonemore]

Find me sport. We'll have a conversation. J.O.M.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[DannyB11]

My apologies to J.O.M. for what my other personality said earlier. We didn't mean to call you a liar but thats what the bad personality does sometimes. I am trying to get these flare-ups under control but it is a daunting task. Wait, i feel my Whooter personality coming on or is it SUCK IT? Sometimes even i cant tell them all apart.
Peace and Powerlessness
Danny