Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora An open discussion about the troubled parent industry
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My responses toPost 1:llness is a synonym for disease.Riiiiiiiiiiight.Post 2:I never claimed it was legal to order people to attend AA. I said it was common despite it's blatantly unconstitutional nature. Sure people can sue, but until people start doing that en-masse the practice is not going to change.Dude it has ended. What AA are you talking about. Oh I know the same program your talking about from 15 years ago.Post 3:AA supports AA in treatment centers like Christianity supports Christianity in Churches. I never claimed the organization itself owned or operated treatment centers. Your either pretending to be naive or your just stubborn, your comment above makes absolutely no sense. Your contradicting yourself.What you wanted to say maybe is, People, who attend AA meeting have opened, operated and worked at treatment centers. They have marketed, been salesmen and advertised in the name of AA, "fraudulently" for treatment centers. Post 4:I never claimed AA attempts to claim that everybody who drinks is an alcoholic. However in AA there is a saying that "if drinking causes you problems you have a drinking problem," is there not? I could list a few more. I'd say Stanton Peele is on the money, as he usually is.No there is not as you stated but Psy, do we really have to evaluate this. If every time you drink, you end up with multiple problems then one could assume you have a problem with alcohol. Are you a alcoholic, I don't know. Did the chicken cross the street, was it the chicken or the egg?Post 5:You provided more support than refutation for the cult idea in your examples. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Sure some argue that though AA does use thought reform it's not a *destructive* cult-like group because it's for a good purpose (successful recovery) but if there is no real success (and "sacred traditions" to prevent examination of the claims of success) that argument falls apart.Why you are requiring that I treat AA as a Corporation who owns Treatment Centers where they are marketing their success rates, to up profits.AA is based on one alcoholic helping another, that is it. This is why these surveys were stopped. We are non-profit on my level (a group/meeting). I care about the folks a share a meeting with on a certain night. Do I control whether they stay on the wagon or not, No.Jeesh psy, AA has only worked one way for 75 years, that is, that AA is available for everyone but it seems the folks who want it "prosper" and the ones who truly need it don't seem to get it. Psy, stop being concerned with statistics and try to be more inclined to look at the grassroots of alcoholism. Post 6:Danny. We've linked to AA surveys on AA's own website in the past and still you refuse to believe. It's funny. You quote text saying "AA has continued to publish member surveys" and follow your commentary with "AA does not do surveys" You're a parody of yourself, you really are, as is your crap about your "sacred traditions". And you're trying to convince others that AA is not some sort of cult or religion? You have a "sacred tradition" that you won't study the effectiveness of your religion lest it be proven objectively false. Hahahahahaha.You have never shown me or anyone else where AA has done a survey that was presented to the public. This paragraph here I am posting explains the only surveys ever done in conjunction with outside authorities."The basic results of the surveys are made available in pamphlet form to AA members. Additional comments and analysis intended for academic and professional audiences were written to supplement the survey results from 1970 to 1990.[4] Non-alcoholic Board of Trustee Member, Dr. John [Jack] Norris wrote the second and third analyses. The second was presented at the North American Congress on Alcohol and Drug Problems,[10] the third was presented at the International Congress on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence".[11] Post 7:The evidence you post would seem to indicate AA does not work. I agree with you completely that AA members will swear it works, but so do people who go to fortune tellers, douse for water, or practice scientology. Like in those examples, evidence often contradicts the anecdotes.Well Psy, you don't want AA to work. This has been your mind set from day one. I am not trying to change your mind either, just enjoy conversation with you about this. Maybe you have learned something you did not know before, I always do.
The effectiveness of AA, That is what everyone wants to know here. Is it successful. Well go to a meeting and ask one Alcoholic and you will have your answer. That is how it works.
Quote from: "DannyB II"The effectiveness of AA, That is what everyone wants to know here. Is it successful. Well go to a meeting and ask one Alcoholic and you will have your answer. That is how it works.No, anecdotal stories do not equal evidence. The ONLY study AA has allowed was the one done by Valliant who found that AA actually harmed people. He also found that the "success" rate was 5%...same as spontaneous remission.
