LGATs/Encounter groups/Confrontational "therapy"

[Whooter]

Calm down, Anne.  You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do.  See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions.  So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours.  Lets keep the same standard for everyone.

Jesus fucking christ, you are tedious.  Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?


Now, no deflection, no derailing.......answer the fucking question.

Calm down, Anne. You seem to have this control issue where you want to tell others what to do. See, when I asked you 2 questions you got defensive and accused me of putting words in your mouth. I pointed out your error and then you refused to answer the questions. So slow down and re-read the post and answer my questions then I will address yours. Lets keep the same standard for everyone.



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'sawright Whooter.....we can all see that you can't/won't answer.  If you do, you either admit that we've been right all along or you admit that you approve of using these techniques on children.  You lose either way, so you refuse to answer.

Lots of high drama for you today.    So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne,  that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.



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[Anne Bonney]

Lots of high drama for you today.    So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne,  that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.

No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is.  I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what.  That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of.  If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it.  No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm.  Primum non nocere.  

So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids?  Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?

[Paul St. John]

Well.. anymore roadblocks or has Anne earned an answer?


Also, I do not approve of or support that author.. In fact, I don t give a flying fuck about him.

Do I get an answer?

Paul

Moment of truth Whooter....  :jamin:

[Whooter]

Lots of high drama for you today.    So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne,  that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.

No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is.  I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what.  That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of.  If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it.  No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm.  Primum non nocere.  

So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids?  Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?

So a guy kidnaps a kid, holds him for 5 days, asks for money from his parents and abuses him and you view it as a mistake in judgment but still follow this guys thinking and advice. Do you think many here, including yourself, would be as tolerant if the kid was taken to be placed in a program if the intentions were good?
You dont have to answer, just making a point.

Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?

No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.



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[Anne Bonney]

Lots of high drama for you today.    So in keeping with an even standard.... Lets also conclude, by your silence to my questions, Anne,  that you approve of abusing children as long as it is for a cause that you believe in and you also admit follow the advice of and supporting someone who kidnaps and abuses kids for ransom.

No, I said it's horrible what happened to that boy...and it is.  I guess Ross was attempting to "deprogram" the kid, which I would never condone no matter what.  That would be using the "end justifies the means" mentality that programs are so fond of.  If the kid voluntarily joined the cult....his choice, so be it.  No amount of "deprogramming" against his will is going to do any good, and could cause greater harm.  Primum non nocere.  

So, gonna still avoid the question about using LGATs on kids?  Still gonna avoid Awake's thread on the Double Bind?

So a guy kidnaps a kid, holds him for 5 days, asks for money from his parents and abuses him and you view it as a mistake in judgment

Did I say it was a "mistake in judgment"?  No, I said it was horrible.  Does it mean that everything he's ever written ever, ever in his entire life is all wrong, wrong, wrong?  No, of course not.  It does mean that his method of deprogramming is wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone.  The same way that sometimes programs have decent intentions, but their methods are wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone, especially children.

but still follow this guys thinking and advice. Do you think many here, including yourself, would be as tolerant if the kid was taken to be placed in a program if the intentions were good?
You dont have to answer, just making a point.

Your point being an attempt to distort and discredit what I said.  

Do you approve of using LGATs on supposedly troubled teens?

No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.

You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no?  And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?

You don't have to answer, just making a point.

[SUCK IT]

You do realize Walmart, and other corporations use LGAT? They are not forced they could quit their job, but it works. It works in the military as well, but in treatment programs for adolescents the idea is to break down their old ideas of self destruction and build a new foundation that they can start a new sober life with. This is not a bad thing at all. By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse. What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc? There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.

[Anne Bonney]

You do realize Walmart, and other corporations use LGAT? They are not forced they could quit their job, but it works.

What does it do?

It works in the military as well, but in treatment programs for adolescents the idea is to break down their old ideas of self destruction and build a new foundation that they can start a new sober life with. This is not a bad thing at all.

Yes, it is.  It's a very bad thing.

By the way, you do know that kids in treatment programs do have the option of not participating? But then they will not progress in the treatment program, but the teens always have a right to refuse.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Oh, wait....you're serious.   Wow.  Some choice.

What if a kid refuses to speak, how would the force someone to reveal things about themselves, etc?

But then they will not progress in the treatment program,

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, as usual.

I know!  I wish Whooter would stop!

[Whooter]

Did I say it was a "mistake in judgment"? No, I said it was horrible. Does it mean that everything he's ever written ever, ever in his entire life is all wrong, wrong, wrong? No, of course not. It does mean that his method of deprogramming is wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone. The same way that sometimes programs have decent intentions, but their methods are wrong, wrong, wrong and should never be used on anyone, especially children.

But you don’t view him as the scum of the earth because of it.  So if a guy that is capable of doing that to a child gets a pass from you why are you so tough on these escort agencies who transport kids for good reason or the 300 pound staff member who sat on the child and killed him by accident and numerous others who have done way less than that?

I think ( my opinion) the answer to the question is that you agree with this guys views and therefore turn a blind eye to his failings and short comings.  If this had been a program owner you would never consider his point of view or let him off the hook for what he did to an innocent child.



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[SUCK IT]

What does it do?

It helps people shed their destructive self beliefs and adopt new and healthy ideas and system of dealing with their own problems. All the while with a support of a group of people who have the same goal, which makes it even more effective.

Oh, wait....you're serious.   Wow.  Some choice.

Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.

[Anne Bonney]

Yes I'm serious. It's not possible to force somebody to talk about things they don't want to talk about. They can just refuse all attempts to help them, and then maybe they can find fornits and post about how they were abused, etc.

No, but they can hold their life hostage if the kids don't perform to their standards, which is exactly what happens.  I had only drank and smoked pot a couple of times before going in Straight, but after being in there 6 months or so and being screamed at and humiliated and berated because I wasn't "being honest" about my drug use....I started to make shit up.  Lo and behold, I started to progress.  I received all the "lovebombs" they could throw at me because I was being "honest"...never mind that everything I was saying was a complete lie...it was what they wanted to hear and they could then run to my parents and say, "See?.....we told you she had a problem with drugs".   How is that helpful to anyone?

[Whooter]

You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?

You don't have to answer, just making a point.

Yes, I believe  they use similar tactics in their model.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.




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[Inculcated]

You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?

You don't have to answer, just making a point.

Yes, I believe  they use similar tactics in their model.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.




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Who,
I may be wrong in thinking that you approve of them, but aren’t Aspen programs a part of those programs you defend?
Wasn’t Mount Bachelor Academy an Aspen program that was ordered to be closed based on DHS findings? I bring it up because it seems a most poignant example of programs subjecting kids to degrading methods.
The lap dances in group reported by children at MBA seem like recent example of how the attack therapy origins of the industry that inspired humiliating “LEs” were blurred into the degrading psychodramas like “Life Steps” that have played out in many programs. It seems that this industry is still a long way from disentangling themselves from that backward thinking that hurting or humiliating their charges is acceptable if done under a therapeutic pretext.
Just as there was no validity to the benefits of breaking people through Synanon style Game tactics and calling it a breakthrough when the individual broke…there is no therapeutic value in commanding children to perform lap dances in groups, wouldn’t you agree?

[Anne Bonney]

You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?

You don't have to answer, just making a point.

Yes, I believe  they use similar tactics in their model.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.

Wait, what?  So, I'm asking for clarification purposes because I'm genuinely confused by your post.....I asked you if you approved of using LGAT-type tactics on supposedly troubled teens and you responded...

No I dont, unless it is a seminar that they sign up for themselves.

But we're talking about programs for troubled teens that you agree use similar tactics ....

Yes, I believe  they use similar tactics in their model

.  and ....

There is nothing wrong with that.  If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.

The kids are, according to you, in programs because they're troubled.....you don't think LGATs should be used on troubled kids but you approve of programs' use of the tactics on kids?  I'm confused.

[Ursus]

You do realize that Aspen, WWASPS etc. use the LGAT-type tactics, no? And that the kids have no choice but to participate...you do realize this, right?

You don't have to answer, just making a point.

Yes, I believe  they use similar tactics in their model.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If the child was not at-risk or a troubled teen then the child should submit him/herself to an LGAT only if they wanted to.

Who decides who is an "at-risk" or "troubled teen?" Sometimes those labels can be pretty skewed according to parental perspective!

Personally, I don't think these methods should be utilized on anyone who doesn't have a fully formed self-identity, which certainly includes all kids.

[SUCK IT]

LGATs are dangerous, especially if it's forced upon someone.  I would never voluntarily attend one, but if an adult thinks they can glean some special knowledge from it, fine.....go right ahead.  Forcing that kind of emotional intrusion onto a child, especially one that may be troubled to begin with, is deplorable.

Citation please? This is what you asked me for when I said LGAT work and are effective, I have no proof but I suspect neither do you. Which makes it my word against yours, or more accurately the word of those who have been through LGAT's and liked it, and those who go through LGAT and think it is something dangerous and harmful. Judging by the slim minority of participants that seem interested in forums like this and websites like the anti cult one I would hypothesize that perhaps many more people are satisfied with them than not. Let's say you take a survey of people leaving an LGAT, even one that was 'forced' upon troubled teens. If you took a poll and said, how many of you thought this was helpful/beneficial versus negative/harmful, which answer do you think would be chosen more often? I think it would be the first option and I think most people would conclude, based on their experiences and how small the minority complaint is, that they are safe and effective. I would even say there are more people who have a very great experience than people who would vote for harmful, LGAT have the power to change people's lives and in a lot of ways it's almost spiritual, and life changing. LGAT is a great thing when done right, but of course a slim minority will have issues and this is expected in all facets of life, nothing is perfect unfortunately. The internet has a way of magnifying these slim minorities of all subjects further complicating the truth.