Author Topic: new JRC Article  (Read 24217 times)

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Offline DannyB II

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Re: new JRC Article
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2010, 07:52:14 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Anne, Do you really think that the staff hold people down with a knife to their throat to administer the shock therapy? You swallow this whole, no questions asked? You dont question why a place like JRC would issue knives as part of the procedure and train their staff how to hold people down at knife point? Are you so far off onto the fringe that you buy this without question?
I can't actually speak for Anne, but I don't see where she explicitly said that. And I myself don't know whether they use real knives or fake knives in this exercise of wanton power run amok. But this point is but secondary, unless an accident occurs.

The primary and most relevant issue or truth here is that the student is under the impression that the knives are real. THAT is the whole point behind the Behavior Rehearsal Lessons (BRLs), which are intended to elicit so-called unacceptable behaviors or reactions to stimuli, e.g., F-E-A-R, and for which the kids then get zapped. I imagine the intended lesson is that the student viscerally associates the unacceptable behavior with the aversive electrical accompaniment. S/he is not going to react if s/he knows the knives are fake.

This of course brings up the likelihood of residual trauma from all this. But that's for another post.


From Torture not Treatment: Electric Shock and Long-Term Restraint in the United States on Children and Adults with Disabilities at the Judge Rotenberg Center, Urgent Appeal to the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture Presented by Mental Disability Rights International:

    Additionally, children are shackled, restrained and secluded for months at a time. Social isolation and food deprivation as punishment is common.
Mock and threatened stabbings – to forcibly elicit unacceptable behaviors which then result in electric shock punishments (known as Behavioral Research Lessons or BRLs) - have been reported to MDRI and state regulatory bodies as well.

    The worst thing ever was the BRLs. They try and make you do a bad behavior and then they punish you. The first time I had a BRL, two guys came in the room and grabbed me – I had no idea what was going on. They held a knife to my throat and I started to scream and I got shocked. I had BRL's three times a week for stuff I didn't even do. It went on for about six months or more. I was in a constant state of paranoia and fear. I never knew if a door opened if I would get one. It was more stress than I could ever imagine. Horror. –  MDRI interview with former JRC student[/list][/list]



     :shamrock:  :shamrock:

    This has gone from surreal and into insane. Now you folks are going to tell me you actually do believe knives are being used or "at least the impression" they are being used to elicit a reaction, which then because of his reaction to the knives he can be shocked so they can study the reaction. Well shit that happens in prison everyday unscripted only there not using electricity.
    I was under the impression this said patient was being held by knives so he could be shocked for misbehavior. This was not a treatment or a study or a BRL, this was just abuse by some crazy staff who should be shot on site. Now I am not saying this was written verbatim in the article. It was just my take on it, could be wrong. Then again I am on the other side of the issue so of course I see it differently.

    Danny
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    Stand and fight, till there is no more.

    Offline Ursus

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    Re: new JRC Article
    « Reply #151 on: May 17, 2010, 08:48:39 PM »
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    The primary and most relevant issue or truth here is that the student is under the impression that the knives are real. THAT is the whole point behind the Behavior Rehearsal Lessons (BRLs), which are intended to elicit so-called unacceptable behaviors or reactions to stimuli, e.g., F-E-A-R, and for which the kids then get zapped.
    We don’t know that,Ursus.  Maybe he was under the impression.  Maybe he isn’t telling the truth.  The point is I find it interesting that out of all the reading, all the positive accounts and all the negative accounts that you and Anne tend to believe this “Shocking at knife point” over all the other articles.
    Oh, I'm sure he was telling the truth as far as the usage of knives are concerned. Matthew Israel himself is quite unabashed about using knives in the context of treating students who have a history of self-harm in that manner. But I'd agree with you that Israel's description doesn't entirely comport with the overall impression one is left with from MDRI's above quoted "Torture Not Treatment" report. That may or may not make a difference to folks. I think there are other problems even in a best case scenario that are certainly not addressed by Israel.

    Just so that we're all on the same page as far as the source material is concerned, here is a lengthy excerpt re. the usage of knives during BRLs from JRC's faq page:

      There are certain behaviors that are so dangerous to the student or to others that one wants to prevent them from occurring even one more time, if one can.

      <snip snip>

      In such situations behavior rehearsal lessons are applied as follows. One prompts the student to engage in the first phase of the behavior. For example one prompts a student to pick up a knife and begin to direct it toward his arm as though to cut it with the knife. Then one arranges an aversive stimulus, for example one administers a GED skin shock. This is called a behavior rehearsal lesson. The student is prompted (against his will if necessary) to begin the undesired behavior (i.e., to move the knife in the direction of the arm) and is then receives an aversive stimulus while engaging in that beginning phase of the behavior.

      The purpose of the procedure is to transfer some of the aversive properties of the GED stimulus to the internal stimuli that are generated by the beginning phase of the behavior. This transfer is accomplished by the pairing the beginning phase of the behavior with the GED stimulation. The intention is that if this can be done, then the following will happen: when, on a future occasion, the student begins to engage in the problem behavior, the beginning phase of the behavior will automatically generate conditioned aversive properties and the student will then terminate these conditioned aversive properties by refraining from engaging in the behavior. Typically the student will be given a certain number - say 3 or 4 - such lessons during a week at random times. Then as the student progresses, the frequency is diminished to a zero level.
      [/list]
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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      Offline Ursus

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      Re: new JRC Article
      « Reply #152 on: May 17, 2010, 08:53:31 PM »
      Here is the key part I have a real problem with:

        The student is prompted (against his will if necessary) to begin the undesired behavior (i.e., to move the knife in the direction of the arm) and is then receives an aversive stimulus while engaging in that beginning phase of the behavior.[/list]

        My best guess, and it is truly naught more than a guess, is that the student quoted above was "prompted" against his will to move said knife in whatever direction as was his particular predilection for self-harm. Who knows what that exactly entailed. One could certainly picture staff forcing the knife into his hand and then forcibly holding that hand with the knife as they go through the motions of the scenario for which he will be subsequently shocked.

        Again, I really don't know this for sure. It is but one scenario that is consistent with both Matthew Israel's description of his "therapeutic" methods, as well as the student's consequent trauma over said "cure."
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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        Offline Inculcated

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        I feel HATE
        « Reply #153 on: May 17, 2010, 09:07:18 PM »
        “The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, chiefly I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses”
          -Bertrand Russell

        In this case, methods at Judge Rotenberg Center appear to at least entertain Matthew Israel’s sadistic bent.

        For as long as there are those who would sanction unconscionable acts of cruelty  under the auspices of therapeutic intervention there will be places like JRC to inflict and profit from suffering.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        “A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis

        Offline DannyB II

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #154 on: May 17, 2010, 10:13:10 PM »
        Re: new JRC Article

        Postby Ursus » Today, 20:48
         

        Ursus wrote: The primary and most relevant issue or truth here is that the student is under the impression that the knives are real. THAT is the whole point behind the Behavior Rehearsal Lessons (BRLs), which are intended to elicit so-called unacceptable behaviors or reactions to stimuli, e.g., F-E-A-R, and for which the kids then get zapped.


        Whooter wrote: We don’t know that,Ursus. Maybe he was under the impression. Maybe he isn’t telling the truth. The point is I find it interesting that out of all the reading, all the positive accounts and all the negative accounts that you and Anne tend to believe this “Shocking at knife point” over all the other articles.

        Ursus wrote: Oh, I'm sure he was telling the truth as far as the usage of knives are concerned. Matthew Israel himself is quite unabashed about using knives in the context of treating students who have a history of self-harm in that manner. But I'd agree with you that Israel's description doesn't entirely comport with the overall impression one is left with from MDRI's above quoted "Torture Not Treatment" report. That may or may not make a difference to folks. I think there are other problems even in a best case scenario that are certainly not addressed by Israel.
        Just so that we're all on the same page as far as the source material is concerned, here is a lengthy excerpt re. the usage of knives during BRLs from JRC's faq page:
        There are certain behaviors that are so dangerous to the student or to others that one wants to prevent them from occurring even one more time, if one can.
        <snip snip>
        In such situations behavior rehearsal lessons are applied as follows. One prompts the student to engage in the first phase of the behavior. For example one prompts a student to pick up a knife and begin to direct it toward his arm as though to cut it with the knife. Then one arranges an aversive stimulus, for example one administers a GED skin shock. This is called a behavior rehearsal lesson. The student is prompted (against his will if necessary) to begin the undesired behavior (i.e., to move the knife in the direction of the arm) and is then receives an aversive stimulus while engaging in that beginning phase of the behavior.
        The purpose of the procedure is to transfer some of the aversive properties of the GED stimulus to the internal stimuli that are generated by the beginning phase of the behavior. This transfer is accomplished by the pairing the beginning phase of the behavior with the GED stimulation. The intention is that if this can be done, then the following will happen: when, on a future occasion, the student begins to engage in the problem behavior, the beginning phase of the behavior will automatically generate conditioned aversive properties and the student will then terminate these conditioned aversive properties by refraining from engaging in the behavior. Typically the student will be given a certain number - say 3 or 4 - such lessons during a week at random times. Then as the student progresses, the frequency is diminished to a zero level.

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        Re: new JRC Article

        Postby Ursus » 57 minutes ago
        Here is the key part I have a real problem with:

        The student is prompted (against his will if necessary) to begin the undesired behavior (i.e., to move the knife in the direction of the arm) and is then receives an aversive stimulus while engaging in that beginning phase of the behavior.
        My best guess, and it is truly naught more than a guess, is that the student quoted above was "prompted" against his will to move said knife in whatever direction as was his particular predilection for self-harm. Who knows what that exactly entailed. One could certainly picture staff forcing the knife into his hand and then forcibly holding that hand with the knife as they go through the motions of the scenario for which he will be subsequently shocked.
        Again, I really don't know this for sure. It is but one scenario that is consistent with both Matthew Israel's description of his "therapeutic" methods, as well as the student's consequent trauma over said "cure."
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------
         
         :shamrock:  :shamrock:

        Thanks for your informative comments and the excerpts from the articles, Ursus. I mean this don't know if it matters to you but it does to me.
        From first hand knowledge I have witnessed the bodies prior to coming in to a place like JRC. Especially the patients that harm themselves. The arms, legs and torso's look like they were hit by a land mine in some cases in others it looks like they walked into a hail storm of knives, just ask around here I am sure there are folks not commenting that know exactly what I am talking about. These children did not have any help either they did this to themselves over and over. The scars on their heads and upper face, around the forehead and eye sockets from banging their heads constantly. How much swelling of the brain has happened with each incident.
        Ursus I am not defending abuse I have said this over and over, you know this but I am also not going to just drop a form of treatment for these kids that can help them from doing this. I don't have enough info to keep me from changing my mind. I want to see the results of the investigation.

        Danny
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        Offline Secret Dwarf Hooker

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #155 on: May 17, 2010, 10:27:25 PM »
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Che Gookin

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #156 on: May 17, 2010, 11:11:11 PM »
        Jesus fucking Christ..  That report made me slightly ill to my stomach.
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        Offline Awake

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #157 on: May 18, 2010, 01:10:46 AM »
        Quote from: "Secret Dwarf Hooker"
        Former Teacher Statement

        "I would like to share memories with you that I have of observing students displaying significant signs of traumatic stress from watching other students receive electric shocks at the Judge Rotenberg Center."

        Despite the atrocities in the article, I thought I might just point out this specifically. That it is not just one shock, but engages an alterd state of consciousness (fear) in the group of peers. We can't predict the amount of dissociation that a single shock will produce in an individual based on how their individual experience of it, and it is probably less likely that we can determine the traumatic effect on each ...student (? ... i believe we lack a language) when they watch each other suffer. There is just no way to know. Even more disturbing is that they cannot go to ease the one suffering, actually are supposed to act ignorant of it.

        Personally, I thought I was tough enough to watch the latest SAW movie, but I pretty much had to look away half the time. Even in a fake context I just can't help but imagine it happening to me and cringe at it, But that is a movie. In an intense interpersonal context where we strongly identify with each others position it can very easily be the case that someone would rather be shocked than watch the other suffer.

        This is not treating an individual with a symptom, it is highly dependent on developing a peer group homeostasis within this context.

        It is important to consider that some people may display abnormal behavior that we may not yet know how to treat with conventional means, but if we answer problematic behavior by justifying equally abhorrent behavior we are allowing one persons problem to become pathological on the social level. When we let extremely unique conditions that exist in an individual become a reason that we should react on a societal level with abnormal behavior, forceful, abhorrent behavior it means we have bought into an answer where there is none. As an answer to the unanswerable we accept these institutions into our society and then the individual symptom becomes a symptom for the rest of us.

        This may very well affect many people's decision to have children. Who would want to bring up a child in a world where this is a possibility? Is it really one shock if it has such a widespread effect?
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Anne Bonney

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #158 on: May 18, 2010, 11:35:28 AM »
        Quote from: "Whooter"

        Anne, Do you really think that the staff hold people down with a knife to their throat to administer the shock therapy?  You swallow this whole, no questions asked? You dont question why a place like JRC would issue knives as part of the procedure and train their staff how to hold people down at knife point?  Are you so far off onto the fringe that you buy this without question?

        I never said that....but they do admit to using knives in their role playing "therapies" for cutters. Which I find horrific as well.

        Quote
        Then you reject the personal accounts of how the shock therapy has help people move on with their lives?  Have you read the rebuttal by JRC?  

        Never said that either and yes, I've read it throughly.

        Quote
        The reason why fornits has lost much of its credibility is because people like you are not forth coming and swallow every negative article you can find and then reject the rest as brainwashed babble.

        Your words, not mine.  And what am I not forthcoming about?  A bit of the pot calling the kettle black, right "just a program parent"?

        Quote
        Like I said I am not advocating shock therapy because I dont have all the facts but "rush to judgments" like yours just shows how dishonest the information presented on fornits really is.  why are you afraid to look at both sides fairly and make up you mind after the department of Justice finishes their investigation?  or read the rebuttal that JRC put out?  They have a right to defend themselves too.

        Never said they didn't.  I have a right to my opinion about their "therapy".  Who's the one threatened by a differing opinion??

        Quote
        Look at the good with the bad... maybe this place should be shut down or maybe shock therapy has a place in our society to really help some people.  Why close your eyes to this possibility?

        Who's the one threatened by a differing opinion??

        The line has to be drawn somewhere.  For me, constant shocking of kids and having them live in a constant state of fear goes way beyond that line.  Obviously you feel differently.  In fact, I've never seen a line you won't cross....all in the name of "help", mind you.  Time for the Lewis quote again!

            Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
               C. S. Lewis
                English essayist & juvenile novelist (1898 - 1963)
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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        Offline Anne Bonney

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #159 on: May 18, 2010, 01:00:15 PM »
        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        This has gone from surreal and into insane. Now you folks are going to tell me you actually do believe knives are being used or "at least the impression" they are being used to elicit a reaction, which then because of his reaction to the knives he can be shocked so they can study the reaction.

        Yes.  Sick, isn't it?


        Quote
        Well shit that happens in prison everyday unscripted only there not using electricity.


        And that has...ummm, what to do with this situation?
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        traight, St. Pete, early 80s
        AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

        The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

        Offline Whooter

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #160 on: May 18, 2010, 01:47:12 PM »
        Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
        Who's the one threatened by a differing opinion??

        I don’t want to go through the whole thread (jotting down names) but it appears yourself, Ursus, Pile are a few that don’t seem to want to discuss any of the positive feedback received from former students when it comes up.  You only seem to focus on the negative reports.  Just pointing out that it is healthy to recognize all the facets of the issues and leave everything on the table.

        Quote
        The line has to be drawn somewhere. For me, constant shocking of kids and having them live in a constant state of fear goes way beyond that line. Obviously you feel differently. In fact, I've never seen a line you won't cross....all in the name of "help", mind you.

        You said it goes way beyond the line but you never defined where the line is drawn for you.   Can you be more specific?  Just curious.   If you haven’t seen a line I wouldn’t cross then you haven’t been reading here very much prior to posting.  I don’t think the kids should be in a constant state of fear or continuously shocked either.  The whole introduction of a knife into therapy baffles me.  I don’t understand why that is needed and it is difficult to decipher where the facts end and the stories begin.
        But none of those issues, so far, negates the use of Shock therapy (in my view).




        ...
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        Offline SUCK IT

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #161 on: May 18, 2010, 02:08:01 PM »
        You just don't get it Whooter! Anybody who ever talks about a positive experience in treatment is brainwashed or too stupid to know what's good for them. Here the geniuses at fornits think tank debate the inner workings of child treatment and come up with the best solutions in the world, that is why they are paid so much. Don't forget about the fornits definition of abuse and oppression, according to fornits everybody is a victim.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        one day at a time

        Offline John Whooter Reuben

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #162 on: May 18, 2010, 02:43:45 PM »
        LOL...Oh, Whooter.  STICC it up your ass.  Until you free your mind from the group think of your TTI cronies, you'll always be thrashing around in the dark.  Anne Bonney or anyone else with spare time thrashes you until you cry out in butt-hurt anguish.  Squeal a bit louder for me, boy.
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        Offline Whooter

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #163 on: May 18, 2010, 04:56:12 PM »
        Here are some links for those interested:

        November 2009 Testimonies at the State House:

        Here is a guy who was on shock therapy for several years Left in 2008 and only received 5 to 7 shocks his whole time there.  Married now with 2 kids and says the GED really turned him around

        Pucha Marcos Link

        A woman who was helped after a long history of being institutionalized in various other settings:

        Arecelias Sanchez Link

        The 3 didn’t feel they were in fear during the time they were under the GED therapy.  They all seemed to be on a rewards system.

        Q&A State House Testimony

        Sitting thru these testimonies it becomes obvious that the therapy can be successful and help people but then reading the horrors of the more negative accounts raises the questions:   How is this therapy controlled?  Are the staff allowed to go off the procedures or are the procedures not detailed enough to control when a child is to receive a shock?  Why would they need to hold a knife to the throat of a person receiving the shock when they have a backpack on?  This doesn't add up or make sense.

        There are still a lot of open issues but it doesnt seem likely that Shock therapy (as defined here) will be considered abusive or inhumane.



        ...
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        Offline SUCK IT

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        Re: new JRC Article
        « Reply #164 on: May 18, 2010, 05:32:55 PM »
        Quote from: "John Whooter Reuben"
        Until you free your mind from the group think of your TTI cronies, you'll always be thrashing around in the dark.  Anne Bonney or anyone else with spare time thrashes you until you cry out in butt-hurt anguish.  Squeal a bit louder for me, boy.

        Ironically this is the same type of "brainwashing " and "emotional abuse" that people here claim gives them a right to claim victimhood for life, but yet Whooter is subjected to this exact same "abuse" that people claim happened to them in programs and he doesn't claim to be a survivor of intense LGAT brainwashing fornits sessions. I think it's high time that Whooter label himself a survivor of abuse like the other people here! Free your mind whooter or we will subject you to continued abuse and try to find out who you are in real life so we can harrass you and make websites that slander you and your work so that you lose your salary and your family is moved out onto the street! Hell yeah, fornits is not hypocritcal and psychotic at all, right????  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  WHooter has been through more abuse and threats here on fornits than most of the "survivors" can say happened to them in treatment, fucking psycho losers this cult of fornits is. Long live Whooter and his rational common sense argument!
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        one day at a time