new JRC Article

[Whooter]

I am just trying to gain an understanding as to why people here object to it.  Some thoughts:

So its not strictly that it harms the person, but rather that it is done to alter their behavior?

 So some here feel harming someone to try to cure cancer is okay?  What if the chemotherapy also altered the childs behavior.  Would that be okay?  If the child became afraid to go outside because she was bald and became self conscious of her appearance.  Would this altered behavior be okay?

Lets ask ourselves…..Is it okay to alter a persons behavior via medication instead of shock therapy?  What if the medication had to be administered via needle (which is like a bee sting) would that be okay?  Would the harm being inflicted outweigh the benefits?

What if the person choose to have the shock therapy and realized there would be a bee sting effect involved?  Would you object to the use on that level?

What if not altering the childs behavior meant that he/she would harm themselves seriously or someone else?



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[Inculcated]

My sentiments are similar to those expressed by others on this thread that imposing a request for an alternative therapy regimen onto a discussion about what is blatantly abusive treatment is a departure from the importance of abolishing those practices that are harmful.
I’m not going to get pulled into any endorsements at the expense of the discussion being detracted from what is imo of most immediate importance.

Everything about how JRC markets themselves is about using “intensive” treatments under the implied rationale that this is called for in extreme cases....That is unacceptable.

Primum non nocere.

[DannyB II]

Inculcate,
I get where you are going with this Inculcate but what I am not hearing from folks is alternatives (not to the abuse) for the severe disabilities these children have, as Joel was saying. I can relate to being out of control and no other facility wanting you but a place like JRC, I have had this experience.
If this is within your field of expertise please do share I would like to read it or if anyone else has info, share.
I know how folks feel about Whooter but so far outside of Joel, he is the only person willing to share anything worth reading concerning remedies for these kids. I understand shock treatments are cruel, I just would like to read more about them.

Danny

 




So, criticism isn't valid unless accompanied by a solution?  Really?  I have no clue how to handle the situation, but I know how NOT to. Primum non nocere.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Anne, don't do this please, go off half cocked on a post that I think you misunderstood. I was asking a question there was no judgment involved. Of course you can criticize, I did the same thing for the same reason. Don't attack me be cause I am outside the hoola hoop on this one, I said I have personal experience in this, if you bothered to really read my post here and others I have posted on this thread. I am very close to this and all I am doing is asking for different opinions on this subject....OK.
I guess I did get a little testy, I apologize.
I can only hope your Spanish phrase was a nice compliment, I was feeling a little down today...lol.

Danny

[Anne Bonney]

Anne, don't do this please, go off half cocked on a post that I think you misunderstood. I was asking a question there was no judgment involved. Of course you can criticize, I did the same thing for the same reason. Don't attack me be cause I am outside the hoola hoop on this one, I said I have personal experience in this, if you bothered to really read my post here and others I have posted on this thread.

Oh, quit being so damned sensitive!  I wasn't attacking you....at all.  I was seriously asking because that seems to be the gist of what you and Who are saying.  That's really it.  Quit reading things into this that aren't there.

I am very close to this and all I am doing is asking for different opinions on this subject....OK.
I guess I did get a little testy, I apologize.

Accepted.

I can only hope your Spanish phrase was a nice compliment, I was feeling a little down today...lol.

Danny

Latin....first, do no harm.

[Whooter]

My sentiments are similar to those expressed by others on this thread that imposing a request for an alternative therapy regimen onto a discussion about what is blatantly abusive treatment is a departure from the importance of abolishing those practices that are harmful.
I’m not going to get pulled into any endorsements at the expense of the discussion being detracted from what is imo of most immediate importance.

Everything about how JRC markets themselves is about using “intensive” treatments under the implied rationale that this is called for in extreme cases....That is unacceptable.

Primum non nocere.

We know that these kids came from restraints 24/7 and or medicated to the point of drooling.  So their quality of life was very low.  So we cant just ignore the fact that if the doors close that these children will return to restraints and medication.  I am sure their are groups of people who would be against physical restraints and call them abusive and would rather see these kids being able to walk freely and just as easily take the position:  "We dont care what happens to these kids as long as they are not restrained,  Primum non nocere", and turn a blind eye to shock treatment like you are to Restraints.

I think we can establish that abuse has occurred at this center.  But it has not been establish that the treatment is abusive.  It is described as a bee sting.  We have heard that children have been burned by the treatment, but it has not been established that every kid is burned.  Maybe this was an error.  People get mistakenly burned by radiation treatment also, but not all people do.

I dont think it is fair to place the burden on Dr. Isreal to find an alternative either... he has a solution and has moved forward with it.  The whole scientific community bears the burden to search for an alternative.

[Whooter]

"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

Whenever I read JRC related threads I imagine how parents feel.  They are making some tough choices that are not easy to make, hopefully many others don't have to make within years to come.  What choice would you make if your disabled child was  severely out of control, threat to himself, threat to others and treatment from an outside facility was the only option?  I bet there may be one person on this website who would consider sending his child to JRC, or possibly do it, so the child would get better.  However, I doubt the said person would speak up for fear of verbal abuse on fornits.

I see what you are saying.  To see these kids who are banging their heads so hard on the floor that their eyes come loose from their heads and severe retinas and then watch a group become outraged because this same person receives a bee sting shock which will allow him to live freely and visit their favorite restaurant on their own I don’t see the scales tipping in favor of allowing the self abuse as the humane choice.

From the silence (here) I think this reality has sunk in and the ones that just simply aligned themselves behind a few reports of abuse are starting to rethink their position because the argument against this shock treatment seems very weak in light of the benefits.  Some say they don’t like it because it burns them and others say that they are shocked 24/7 but if asked if the burns were not typical or that the shocks averaged once per week then many here would still be against it why?  
So this tells me that many here really don’t know why they are against the therapy they just enjoy being with a crowd maybe.  I am surprised that so many here on fornits advocate physical restraints and medication vs therapy.  If we were discussing restraints in a Therapeutic Boarding school then the majority here on fornits would be against it so why are restraints a better alternative at JRC?  Go figure.



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[DannyB II]

:shamrock:  :shamrock:

The problem with this thread is it really hits home with some of the posters here that post often. I feel that because some of us are asking different questions we therefore get shunned, I ask that you not do this. Anne I know you started this thread and I am not trying to divert it into another direction but it is clearly creating more conversation. This is what this Web Site is all about, right.
Just say'in

I thought this was pertinent so I posted it again. Thanks Joel. (hope you don't mind)

Postby Joel » 44 minutes ago
Whenever I read JRC related threads I imagine how parents feel. They are making some tough choices that are not easy to make, hopefully many others don't have to make within years to come. What choice would you make if your disabled child was severely out of control, threat to himself, threat to others and treatment from an outside facility was the only option? I bet there may be one person on this website who would consider sending his child to JRC, or possibly do it, so the child would get better. However, I doubt the said person would speak up for fear of verbal abuse on fornits.

Danny

[Anne Bonney]

I'm sorry....I just don't see how treating a child like a dog is in any way, shape or form good for them.  They make shock collars for dogs to keep them from running out of the yard and into the street.   Just think about the uproar if a parent tried to do this.  

And this ridiculous chemo analogy is getting old.  No comparison.

[Whooter]

I'm sorry....I just don't see how treating a child like a dog is in any way, shape or form good for them.  They make shock collars for dogs to keep them from running out of the yard and into the street.   Just think about the uproar if a parent tried to do this.  

I wouldn’t be too hard on the dog owners.  Once the dog learns not to run into traffic and get killed then the collar comes off.  The dog doesn’t spend a lifetime being shocked.  Its a vehicle which is used to teach the dog to survive.
Your in good company.  There are many people who feel the same way you do and that shock therapy should be ended.  But I think it is good to discuss the reasons why people feel this way and understand the majority.

And this ridiculous chemo analogy is getting old.  No comparison.

I still feel Chemo is analogous.  If you disagree that is okay.  The main purpose is to get people to think about why they are against shock therapy.  If they eliminated the potential for abuse and kept the shocks to once a week and there were no burns and it was a bee sting (as they claim) how many here would be still against it?



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Ursus]

I'm sorry....I just don't see how treating a child like a dog is in any way, shape or form good for them.  They make shock collars for dogs to keep them from running out of the yard and into the street.   Just think about the uproar if a parent tried to do this.  

I wouldn’t be too hard on the dog owners.  Once the dog learns not to run into traffic and get killed then the collar comes off.  The dog doesn’t spend a lifetime being shocked.  Its a vehicle which is used to teach the dog to survive.
Your in good company.  There are many people who feel the same way you do and that shock therapy should be ended.  But I think it is good to discuss the reasons why people feel this way and understand the majority.

And this ridiculous chemo analogy is getting old.  No comparison.

I still feel Chemo is analogous.  If you disagree that is okay.  The main purpose is to get people to think about why they are against shock therapy.  If they eliminated the potential for abuse and kept the shocks to once a week and there were no burns and it was a bee sting (as they claim) how many here would be still against it?

Well then, Whooter, just how would you fit the BRLs into your chemotherapy analogy?

Children at the Judge Rotenberg Center are often shackled, restrained and secluded for months at a time, the report says. Social isolation, and food deprivation as forms of punishment are common. Mock and threatened stabbings -- to forcibly elicit unacceptable behaviors resulting in electric shock punishments (Labeled as Behavioral Research Lessons or BRLs, by the center) were reported to MDRI as well as state regulatory bodies.

A former student of the center reportedly tells MDRI, "The worst thing ever was the BRLs. They try and make you do a bad behavior and then they punish you. The first time I had a BRL, two guys came in the room and grabbed me – I had no idea what was going on. They held a knife to my throat and I started to scream and I got shocked. I had BRLs three times a week for stuff I didn't even do. It went on for about six months or more. I was in a constant state of paranoia and fear. I never knew if a door opened if I would get one. It was more stress than I could ever imagine. Horror."[/list]

[Whooter]

Well then, Whooter, just how would you fit the BRLs into your chemotherapy analogy?

You make a good point, Ursus.  The short answer is:  "You cant".

The analogy only refers to the defined shock therapy vs the Chemotherapy.  For example if I said that you were as honest as Abe Lincoln it would not take into account the difference that he lived hundreds of years ago and you live in the present or that he has a beard, was a president or is tall etc.  The analogy refers specifically that he was honest and comparing that to the honesty of the person you are referring to (not any other characteristics).

The problem people have with shock therapy (as I have been reading here) is that it causes pain and that it is intended to alter behavior.  If abuses of the therapy are occurring then these need to be addressed.... i.e. If a person is shackled and forced to drink gallons of Chemo or endure hours of unneeded radiation then this doesn’t mean that the chemotherapy or radiation is ineffective as a therapy.  It means that the therapy is being abused.  This needs to be separated out when determining if the therapy is appropriate.
If the therapy is found to be effective then the abuses of this therapy can be addressed separately.



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[Awake]

[

The problem people have with shock therapy (as I have been reading here) is that it causes pain and that it is intended to alter behavior.  

You don't believe that is the only perceived problem with shock therapy. You are human and can imagine what a demeaning context it is to wear a heavy device (that serves as a sign that says 'defect') that is truthfully not 'just a shock a day or week' but is the ongoing trauma of threat of shock, and being required to be submissive to such treatment by others is a continuous humiliation. We can't generalize the individual experience in this case, it can cause dissociative effects beyond that of the one that is maintained under fear of that particular threat.

I realize as humans we have varying standards, but from the one conversation I had with you you expressed that you yourself could not maintain your beliefs in these programs if you were to be subjected to the same treatment.

That being the case I think it would be helpful if you gave your definition of the terms 'symptom' 'treatment' ' and 'cure' as it applies here.