new JRC Article

[Whooter]

You don't believe that is the only perceived problem with shock therapy. You are human and can imagine what a demeaning context it is to wear a heavy device (that serves as a sign that says 'defect') that is truthfully not 'just a shock a day or week' but is the ongoing trauma of threat of shock, and being required to be submissive to such treatment by others is a continuous humiliation. We can't generalize the individual experience in this case, it can cause dissociative effects beyond that of the one that is maintained under fear of that particular threat.

This is the first time this has been mentioned on this thread.  I can see your point but it is unknown if this is the way the patients feel or if it would cause these effects you mention.  I have not seen this in any of the articles that were written yet. If the patient themselves or a third party advocate feels it would be humiliating to them or the particular patient then maybe shock therapy should not be used on them.  But patients who do not feel humiliated or have do not have fear could continue with the therapy?

I realize as humans we have varying standards, but from the one conversation I had with you you expressed that you yourself could not maintain your beliefs in these programs if you were to be subjected to the same treatment.

I don’t recall that conversation, awake.  If you are asking if I would want to be subjected to shock therapy today.  My answer would be “no”.

That being the case I think it would be helpful if you gave your definition of the terms 'symptom' 'treatment' ' and 'cure' as it applies here.

Symptom:  I would say is an anomaly of some type or different from the norm.
Treatment:  Would be something active that is trying to eliminate the symptoms or bring back towards the norm.
Cure:  Would be an absence of symptoms after the treatment has ceased.

So the major reasons people here are against shock therapy is because it causes pain intended to alter behavior and that wearing the backpack could be demeaning (as awake had just mentioned).



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Ah, but Whooter, as we've clearly shown, you have no shame whatsoever.

And you yourself have stated many, many times that it doesn't matter what the recipient of said "treatment" wants.

Therefore,

Symptom: Whooter is posting on Fornits.
Treatment: Whooter receives 5 amperes of current directly through his scrotum.
Cure: Whooter no longer posts on Fornits.

I propose we implement this treatment program today. What alternative is there?

[Che Gookin]

A hammer to his nuts instead of an electric shock?

amirite?
 :suicide:

I see alot of false flag arguments being thrown at each other in this thread. The biggest one being what are parents with mentally handicapped parents supposed to do with their uncontrollable children.  I don't think any of us really have the answer other than to say, SHOCKING THE shit out of them isn't an answer. The real visceral truth of this is children are being zapped senseless as we speak.

Where the hell is the white hot rage?

Man.. we've all been reduced to sheeple. I remember an awesome story about General Patton that I heard from a friend of mine whose grandfather was shotdown in WW2. According to the grandfather his POW camp was liberated by Patton himself who rolled up in a tank. As the story goes a German guard took a potshot at him. He took one nasty look at the guard, swiveled the turret on the tank, and blew the whole fucking guard tower away.

That's rage.. white hot fucking rage.

Where is your rage that kids are being hooked up to fucking machines and tortured? When do the hunger strikes, sit ins, blockaides, and that sort of thing start? Nonviolent protest can be motivated at rage for inhumanity. If there is a place worthy of having all our efforts focused on it..

THIS IS the god damn place.. They are shocking kids to the point where people smell burning flesh..

FFS people.. GET FUCKING ANGRY AND DO SOMETHING.

[Whooter]

A hammer to his nuts instead of an electric shock?

amirite?
 :suicide:

I see alot of false flag arguments being thrown at each other in this thread. The biggest one being what are parents with mentally handicapped parents supposed to do with their uncontrollable children.  I don't think any of us really have the answer other than to say, SHOCKING THE shit out of them isn't an answer. The real visceral truth of this is children are being zapped senseless as we speak.

Where the hell is the white hot rage?

Man.. we've all been reduced to sheeple. I remember an awesome story about General Patton that I heard from a friend of mine whose grandfather was shotdown in WW2. According to the grandfather his POW camp was liberated by Patton himself who rolled up in a tank. As the story goes a German guard took a potshot at him. He took one nasty look at the guard, swiveled the turret on the tank, and blew the whole fucking guard tower away.

That's rage.. white hot fucking rage.

Where is your rage that kids are being hooked up to fucking machines and tortured? When do the hunger strikes, sit ins, blockaides, and that sort of thing start? Nonviolent protest can be motivated at rage for inhumanity. If there is a place worthy of having all our efforts focused on it..

THIS IS the god damn place.. They are shocking kids to the point where people smell burning flesh..

FFS people.. GET FUCKING ANGRY AND DO SOMETHING.

Che, I think you answered your own question.  If kids were being tortured at this place there would be a revolt like you have never seen before.  People get upset if we torture our enemies in this country imagine if we did the same thing to kids.  In order for there to be rage there needs to be an injustice done and we all know from reading the various accounts that it is all not clear on what is going on at JRC.

The government started an investigation into JRC back in February of this year so there should be some feedback coming from them at some point.  All we have right now are conflicting reports and varying points of view.

I think we can all agree that many here on fornits are opposed to Behavior modification on any level and therefore would take a stand against JRC.

I can show you pictures of little kids who are so sick from chemo that their hair is falling out and they cant eat because they are afraid to vomit anymore and have lost 40% of their body weight.  Kids get burned by Radiation treatments.  Many of these kids die and we say “Oh well we tried” bring on the next one.  Where is the outrage here?  

Why can we torture kids with Chemotherapy and watch them slowly get consumed by it and die and at the same time get upset at Shock therapy?  This discussion has been good in that it is bringing to the surface the reasons why people are against this type of therapy.



...

[Ursus]

You don't believe that is the only perceived problem with shock therapy. You are human and can imagine what a demeaning context it is to wear a heavy device (that serves as a sign that says 'defect') that is truthfully not 'just a shock a day or week' but is the ongoing trauma of threat of shock, and being required to be submissive to such treatment by others is a continuous humiliation. We can't generalize the individual experience in this case, it can cause dissociative effects beyond that of the one that is maintained under fear of that particular threat.

This is the first time this has been mentioned on this thread.  I can see your point but it is unknown if this is the way the patients feel or if it would cause these effects you mention.  I have not seen this in any of the articles that were written yet. If the patient themselves or a third party advocate feels it would be humiliating to them or the particular patient then maybe shock therapy should not be used on them.  But patients who do not feel humiliated or have do not have fear could continue with the therapy?

Well, with regard to fear and anticipation, Whooter, I guess ya just happened to miss this paragraph a couple of posts back:

"...I had BRLs three times a week for stuff I didn't even do. It went on for about six months or more. I was in a constant state of paranoia and fear. I never knew if a door opened if I would get one. It was more stress than I could ever imagine. Horror."[/list]

Also with regard to the effect of anticipation of a feared event, see the following thread:

The Effects of Anticipated Shocks on Thinking and Behavior
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22955[/list]

[Whooter]

Well, with regard to fear and anticipation, Whooter, I guess ya just happened to miss this paragraph a couple of posts back:

"...I had BRLs three times a week for stuff I didn't even do. It went on for about six months or more. I was in a constant state of paranoia and fear. I never knew if a door opened if I would get one. It was more stress than I could ever imagine. Horror."[/list]

No I didn’t miss it but it is part of all the conflicting information that is coming out of JRC.  We have accounts like you mentioned above.  We have kids who wanted to try the GED Backpacks and it turned out to help them.  They never encountered any fear or horror at all.

Are the problems due to untrained staff?  Do the procedures allow kids to be shocked at the will of the staff members?  Should they do a better job screening people who would benefit from this therapy?

If we took one raving review from a family and their child and told ourselves this happens to all the kids then we would all go home happy and on the flip side if we all took another from a child that said they lived in fear and horror and were shocked for things they never did and called this typical then we would all be against it.  But this obviously isn’t the case.  There is an internal investigation going on as we speak by state and federal agencies and I am sure they will interview numerous patients as well as staff.

I agree that the stories are disturbing, but there are also ones that show the therapy helps so we need to look at the entire picture to see how we can continue to help some without hurting others.  This is something I believe we would all want.

 


...

[Anne Bonney]

I'm sorry....I just don't see how treating a child like a dog is in any way, shape or form good for them.  They make shock collars for dogs to keep them from running out of the yard and into the street.   Just think about the uproar if a parent tried to do this.  

And this ridiculous chemo analogy is getting old.  No comparison.

What choice would you make if your disabled child was severely out of control, threat to himself, threat to others and treatment from an outside facility was the only option?  What other treatment options do you suggest Anne?[/i]

As I said before...I don't know, I don't have the answer.  That's doesn't make what they're doing to kids is right, moral or even effective (beyond scaring them into 'behaving').

[Whooter]

As I said before...I don't know, I don't have the answer. That's doesn't make what they're doing to kids is right, moral or even effective (beyond scaring them into 'behaving').

I dont think any of us have the answer.  Some accounts from the kids themselves say they were not scared and felt the therapy to be helpful.  They are able to live drug and restraint free now.  There are many parents who feel that restraining their children or medicating them for the rest of their life is abusive and want to find an alternative which will allow their children to live restraint and drug free for their lives.  To me this isn’t a bad decision.  We need to look at all the cases before we decide.

Ask yourself how many parents would want to see their children vomiting, losing their hair and watching them be scared to death of what is going to happen next.  I am sure many rethink if they are doing the right thing and the lasting scars that are being done in the name of a procedure which may not work.  Are these parents doing the right thing?  Is this defined as moral or even effective?

If we all step back and look at this therapy from differing points of view I think we can all gain a better perspective of the balance between abusive or helpful.



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

A hammer to his nuts instead of an electric shock?

You win, we can combine them both. Boy, I bet that's going to be THOR in the morning!

FFS people.. GET FUCKING ANGRY AND DO SOMETHING.

It's been said before, here's my first approach: Get a megaphone for some megafun. "Attention, every child being subjected to restraint and electric shock. If you can understand this, and even if you can't, you have the right to a lawyer. Not your parents' lawyer, your own lawyer. What is being done to you is illegal everywhere else, and only legal here because Matthew L. Israel bribed a judge a while back." Then leave. Then come back later, from another angle, and repeat.

They have ABSOLUTELY NO DEFENSE against this, assuming you're at a good range with a sufficiently powerful megaphone. By the time anyone responds you can be way the hell gone.

[Awake]

You don't believe that is the only perceived problem with shock therapy. You are human and can imagine what a demeaning context it is to wear a heavy device (that serves as a sign that says 'defect') that is truthfully not 'just a shock a day or week' but is the ongoing trauma of threat of shock, and being required to be submissive to such treatment by others is a continuous humiliation. We can't generalize the individual experience in this case, it can cause dissociative effects beyond that of the one that is maintained under fear of that particular threat.

This is the first time this has been mentioned on this thread.  I can see your point but it is unknown if this is the way the patients feel or if it would cause these effects you mention.  I have not seen this in any of the articles that were written yet. If the patient themselves or a third party advocate feels it would be humiliating to them or the particular patient then maybe shock therapy should not be used on them.  But patients who do not feel humiliated or have do not have fear could continue with the therapy?

I realize as humans we have varying standards, but from the one conversation I had with you you expressed that you yourself could not maintain your beliefs in these programs if you were to be subjected to the same treatment.

I don’t recall that conversation, awake.  If you are asking if I would want to be subjected to shock therapy today.  My answer would be “no”.

That being the case I think it would be helpful if you gave your definition of the terms 'symptom' 'treatment' ' and 'cure' as it applies here.

Symptom:  I would say is an anomaly of some type or different from the norm.
Treatment:  Would be something active that is trying to eliminate the symptoms or bring back towards the norm.
Cure:  Would be an absence of symptoms after the treatment has ceased.

So the major reasons people here are against shock therapy is because it causes pain intended to alter behavior and that wearing the backpack could be demeaning (as awake had just mentioned).

...

So your definition of ‘symptom’ is enough to constitute being subjected to the treatment we are discussing? Everyone has, or does things different from the norm. I’m not sure we have really agreed on the terminology of what we are discussing. Maybe we should just start with your definition of ‘symptom’ in a little more detail.

In what ways does a symptom manifest itself? (That would be appropriately treated by these methods)

In the case of this treatment, who defines the symptom?

Who is affected by the symptom?

Which negative effects of the symptom are the most important in justifying this treatment?

And just to clarify, the reasons against this treatment, so far (I may have missed some things too), are that it is painful, it is intended to alter behavior by utilizing pain, it is intended to alter behavior by maintaining a constant threat of pain, the effects of such treatment are dissociation which holds a risk to psychological health, and it is impossible to make a judgment as to other dissociative effects as people are inherently different and the level to which people feel demeaned or humiliated can’t be accurately factored into the treatment model.

[Whooter]

So your definition of ‘symptom’ is enough to constitute being subjected to the treatment we are discussing?

No, I wouldn’t think so.  I have not seen a comprehensive list of symptoms which would constitute being considered for shock therapy.  From what I have read so far this therapy is pretty much the end of the road for many patients, which means all other treatments have been ineffective in helping them.

Everyone has, or does things different from the norm. I’m not sure we have really agreed on the terminology of what we are discussing. Maybe we should just start with your definition of ‘symptom’ in a little more detail.

I wouldn’t think we would all agree on just my first cut at a definition.  The word Symptom has a wide range of meanings…i.e. a sniffle is a symptom of having a cold, but it doesn’t mean you do have a cold.  A person needs to look further… a symptom can be as little as a sign, that’s all.

In what ways does a symptom manifest itself? (That would be appropriately treated by these methods)

In the case of this treatment, who defines the symptom?

Who is affected by the symptom?

Which negative effects of the symptom are the most important in justifying this treatment?

Good questions but I couldn’t begin to answer any of them myself.

And just to clarify, the reasons against this treatment, so far (I may have missed some things too), are that it is painful, it is intended to alter behavior by utilizing pain, it is intended to alter behavior by maintaining a constant threat of pain, the effects of such treatment are dissociation which holds a risk to psychological health, and it is impossible to make a judgment as to other dissociative effects as people are inherently different and the level to which people feel demeaned or humiliated can’t be accurately factored into the treatment model.

Good point, we will add “Risk to psychological health”.  I think all of these factors and risks should be considered before this therapy be used.

The same would apply for any therapy….. say Chemotherapy.  Do doctors think about the risk of psychological health when these kids are subjected to Chemotherapy…the pain they will be subjected to, humiliation of losing their hair, constant thought of having to continue Chemotherapy if the first course fails, the constant fear.
In the case of JRC, It would be interesting if these factors are considered when their treatment is brought before the judge, psychologists and advocates for the approval needed to proceed to the level of shock treatment therapy?  I dont think we have had the privilege to view this info but it would answer many of our questions.  I would hate to think that these kids live in daily fear during their time there.

Good discussion, awake.



...

[DannyB II]

You don't believe that is the only perceived problem with shock therapy. You are human and can imagine what a demeaning context it is to wear a heavy device (that serves as a sign that says 'defect') that is truthfully not 'just a shock a day or week' but is the ongoing trauma of threat of shock, and being required to be submissive to such treatment by others is a continuous humiliation. We can't generalize the individual experience in this case, it can cause dissociative effects beyond that of the one that is maintained under fear of that particular threat.

This is the first time this has been mentioned on this thread.  I can see your point but it is unknown if this is the way the patients feel or if it would cause these effects you mention.  I have not seen this in any of the articles that were written yet. If the patient themselves or a third party advocate feels it would be humiliating to them or the particular patient then maybe shock therapy should not be used on them.  But patients who do not feel humiliated or have do not have fear could continue with the therapy?

Well, with regard to fear and anticipation, Whooter, I guess ya just happened to miss this paragraph a couple of posts back:

"...I had BRLs three times a week for stuff I didn't even do. It went on for about six months or more. I was in a constant state of paranoia and fear. I never knew if a door opened if I would get one. It was more stress than I could ever imagine. Horror."[/list]

Also with regard to the effect of anticipation of a feared event, see the following thread:

The Effects of Anticipated Shocks on Thinking and Behavior
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22955[/list]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Ursus, Is that the same gentlemen that said 2 to 3 guards came into his room brandishing knives telling him they would cut his throat. Then we have Ms. Weiss speaking out who can't seem to keep her team together because they are failing to see her allegations. This is to much drama for me to go along with especially in regards to such a controversial treatment. I'll wait for the Gov't report.
Che, that is why I don't have white hot rage because I fail to see the evidence. The people who are speaking out, particularly the one young man with his momma I fail to believe.
This is Massachusetts if there was wholesale abuse going on there these New Englanders would be raising hell. It would be on T.V. some news channel would be picking it up, CNN, FOX, 60 MINS, ABC Nightline, NBC ect.....Something would be happening.
No I do not like shock treatments personally never have, I also don't like kids being medicated to the point of being catatonic or being in a stupor. I am not also convinced there is abuse going on here but I am convinced this is a hot and emotional topic for us.
As Joel said, if you think we are emotional how do you think the parents of these children feel, I will tell you utter hopelessness. The children need help and the treatment will be unorthodox.  

Danny

[Anne Bonney]

This is Massachusetts if there was wholesale abuse going on there these New Englanders would be raising hell. It would be on T.V. some news channel would be picking it up, CNN, FOX, 60 MINS, ABC Nightline, NBC ect.....Something would be happening.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

[DannyB II]

This is Massachusetts if there was wholesale abuse going on there these New Englanders would be raising hell. It would be on T.V. some news channel would be picking it up, CNN, FOX, 60 MINS, ABC Nightline, NBC ect.....Something would be happening.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:

OK Anne, what is so funny. Cause only you know.....lol. Please do tell.
Obviously you don't know New England.

Danny

[Anne Bonney]

This is Massachusetts if there was wholesale abuse going on there these New Englanders would be raising hell. It would be on T.V. some news channel would be picking it up, CNN, FOX, 60 MINS, ABC Nightline, NBC ect.....Something would be happening.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

OK Anne, what is so funny.

Your naivete on this particular issue.  Nobody gives a shit cuz they're keeping the "crazies" away from the "decent people" of society.  Nobody gave a shit about us in Straight because Mel and Miller did a good job of convincing the general public that, 1. we were all dangerous drug addict thugs and 2. that they would be in danger if "those damn druggie kids" were to be turned loose.  Fearmongering at it's finest/worst.  Same with the program parents....enroll your kid or they'll end up deadinsaneorinjail!!!  Boooga booga BOO!!!

Willowbrook  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willowbrook_State_School

Nobody gave a shit until Geraldo went in, undercover, with cameras and showed how the patients were treated, or more to the point, tormented.  Even then there was an outcry of "what are we gonna do with these people", which is a legitimate question, but doesn't justify what was being done to them, or us, in the name of treatment.