Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Whooter]

Whootie, you are one sick fuck.  No wonder your kid killed himself rather than spend time with you.

Oh No!!!  My kid killed himself?  What a way to find out about it on fornits and all.  I am sure you guys would figure out a way to blame a program for it. lol.



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[DannyB II]

So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?”  How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?

No, that's not what I said or meant, but you knew that already.  Twist away asshole, twist away.

People, like you, who don't believe that children have rights are really, really fucked up.

Well, they were right, the kids don’t have any rights. Maybe the staff called  911, in the past, only to find out the kid was faking and the program higher ups reamed their asses for wasting time and valuable resources on a non problem.  So maybe they were afraid to call this time and waited too long.

Every time you dont understand something you accuse them of twisting.  Go back and read the conversation, it hasnt changed.  "I dont believe children have any rights".

and Yes, you have a hard time with people who dont agree with you or think the same way you do.  You think I am really, really fucked up because I dont believe children have rights.  You should find other people who think just like you do and speak to them and I bet you will feel much safer.
There are people that have totally different believes than me but I find their reasons interesting, not threatening.  I dont think they are necessarily screwed up, but I am curious on why they think the way they do.  I dont shun them.  

If I speak with an atheist or someone who worships the sun or the moon... someone who goes to AA or believes in the orange papers or people who believe in corporal punishment ... I dont view them as messed up just because I dont understand their point of view.  I ask questions and try to gain a better perspective myself on why they think that way.  I feel bad that you have locked yourself away in a box.



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:
 That is the best piece of advice your ever going to get, use it towards your advantage.

Danny

[DannyB II]

Just stop it already. I'm not threatened you sanctimonious prick. There's really no point in discussing the care of children with someone who doesn't think they have any rights. I mean really....where do we go from there? You see them as undeserving of the rights that the rest of us enjoy so what am I supposed to say in response to that other than WOW, that's really, really fucked up? You're more concerned with protecting the programs and, I believe, your own income derived from them.

I don’t decide if children have rights or not, the law does.  They have human rights because they are little humans and should have protection from harm, fed etc..  But they don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) have childrens rights….the right to free speech, to vote, choose their religion, medical decisions etc.
How can we give a child the right to free speech before they can talk?  How can we allow children to just decide to stay home from school at age 7 and drink beer all day?  How can we give 12 year olds the right to have sex with 6 year olds?  How can we allow children to decide to have an operation or not, go to boarding school, see a therapist?

The people throughout history that have always been threatened by those with a different opinion then their own have been close minded and ignorant and they usually started a war with them because they couldnt understand.    People who are open minded are curious when they encounter another person with a different point of view.  People like yourself run away and/or ridicule them out of fear.

So people who think differently than you, Anne are… “really, really fucked up?”  How do you ever expect to learn something new if you only listen or talk to people who agree with you?



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

That is the best piece of advice your ever going to get, use it towards your advantage.

Danny

Excuse me?  What?

[Ursus]

:shamrock: :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny

Seriously, Danny, how can you even compare the two? Sure, some parents are evil SOBs, but a hell of a lot more are misguided as to the value of a "tough love" approach -- it's practically endemic in our culture at this point, and some are even misled into believing the marketing hype that these programs are actually "therapeutic" in nature.

Parents do have a personal responsibilities in raising their children, and generally make choices to the best of their abilities with the knowledge and wherewithal they have at hand.

Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods  or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.

[Ursus]

Plus... even from a strictly utilitarian point of view, which I don't necessarily advocate but am bringing up solely for the sheer sake of my orneriness, and barring any debate as to the ethics and culpability involved in said unfortunate decisions and the relative moral weight of personal vs. public responsibilities, wouldn't it make more sense to first go after those who are in a position to do the most harm to the most kids?

[Che Gookin]

This thread delivers some epic hilarity on soooooo many levels, and it fails.

[DannyB II]

:shamrock: :shamrock:
You know everyone (parent) knows that children have no rights but were going to argue here about the morality of Whooter saying what we all know is the truth, every parent posting here has denied their children rights. As parents we all have because it was in their best interests, now going into law children have none really. Yes it does suck but it is a reality. Sergey died because his parents decided he needed to go somewhere else to be raised and the place he was sent to could give a fuck less about his well being. So Sergey did not have any rights at all from his parents to the Wilderness.
So WTF is all this bitching about, go grap his parents and beat the shit out of them for trampling all over their sons right to be a arrogant, belligerent, dope smoking, oxy cot using SOB, not going to school, staying out all night ass. Yeah they sent him to this wilderness camp and they killed him.
I say lets go after the parents, then the organizations.
Danny

Seriously, Danny, how can you even compare the two? Sure, some parents are evil SOBs, but a hell of a lot more are misguided as to the value of a "tough love" approach -- it's practically endemic in our culture at this point, and some are even misled into believing the marketing hype that these programs are actually "therapeutic" in nature.

Parents do have a personal responsibilities in raising their children, and generally make choices to the best of their abilities with the knowledge and wherewithal they have at hand.

Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods  or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Ursus,
I'm beginning to wonder seriously if the message is getting out, got out, heard, excepted, ect.... concerning parents. Their still sending their kids at a brisk pace and show no signs of stopping. So I say lets take this to the parents in a big way and lay it at their feet first, hold them accountable for there children and their rights.
It is to easy and more comfortable to carry on about the programs/centers they seem to be detached from our inner physic-y, why can't we open up a forum that deals strictly with the outrageous neglect these parents are displaying.
This is not being said in a cavalier attitude, I mean it. We are not holding the parents feet to the fire here at all, is it not politically correct would it be a death sentence for fornits, why are we letting them slide.
Enough for now, I am being redundant.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Plus... even from a strictly utilitarian point of view, which I don't necessarily advocate but am bringing up solely for the sheer sake of my orneriness, and barring any debate as to the ethics and culpability involved in said unfortunate decisions and the relative moral weight of personal vs. public responsibilities, wouldn't it make more sense to first go after those who are in a position to do the most harm to the most kids?

NO...NO....NO
I am tried of giving them a break, we have been doing this since these glorified prisons opened for business 40 years ago, how much more education does it take. Most of these parents are college educated and extremely successful ($ 56,000.00 a year) to afford the tuition.
Ursus..... your far to educated to continue to pander to such nonsense that these parents are being buffaloed. There not even trying, they are giving up and handing over the reins at the drop of a dime.
This story needs to be told and I am starting to see this may be my next rant on fornits.
Yes it is being fueled by past deeds done to me but I also don't see any change.
Ursus there are a lot of wicked SOB's out there for parents, I am also starting to consider parents that don't do there homework on these programs, part of that SOB list.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Ursus spoke:
Corporations, on the other hand, have a responsibility to the public to make good on their promises, that is, to deliver the goods or experience that they advertise, and to adhere to commonly accepted practices of safety and, in the case of behavioral health corporations, to First, Do No Harm.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Corporations have one job and one job only, to make money......Period!!!!!!
If we fail to understand that then we are living in a idealistic world and I feel for ya, bro.
How much more proof of that do you need, look at our world. So no I am not just going to
hold the corporations responsible, I am holding the parents first and foremost. Then maybe
we can start putting these corps. out of business.
I was thinking that Sergey parents should also be on the hook (liable) for his death. Who in 2010
lets there child get kidnapped in the early hours and taken somewhere blindfolded, no that is fucked.
As a parent you don't get to check out because you don't like what your child is doing, do a massive
inventory you may find out that you (parents) have a big part in this malady and seek help where you
are also involved in getting therapy.
Danny

[Che Gookin]

Ehh, to some extent I agree with you that parents should be liable for the abuse by proxy or murder by proxy of their children. However, going after the parents only allows the program to keep doing what they have been doing all along. At this point in time going after Sergy's mother is akin to kicking a blind person into oncoming traffic. She's going to suffer for this for the rest of her life, no point in throwing her in front of a bus when's already bleeding out.

[AuntieEm2]

Whooter must be getting major overtime pay--up day and night, day and night, posting a reply to damn near every last livin' comment made on this thread. Working his wittow fingers to the bone responding to a bunch of people he can't stand.

It's got such a desperate, panicky feel to it all. Imagine what the war room at Aspen Education Group must be like these days, trying to staunch the bleeding.

Auntie Em

[DannyB II]

I think you hit it on the nose when you said it depends on the situation.  Kids have the right to apply for their license at age 16 in some states.  But they dont have the right to vote or decide what to put in their bodies, medical decisions etc.
If a kid wants to become a buddist at age 6 and travel to a monastery I think the parents have a right to overrule them and say no.  If the family is catholic then the parents have the right to take the child to church against their will.
So you can spin it anyway you want.  If you want to say kids should be able to choose their own religion then thats fine.  I just dont agree with you.

Oh for fuck's sake....   ::deadhorse::

Bottom line is that kids have rights.  Basic human rights.  You said they don't have rights and you were and are wrong. They have the right not to be abused.  They have the right to proper nutrition and medical care and they are obviously not getting that in these programs, as evidenced by the deaths and the refusal of the programs to take ANY responsibility at all.  

As much as it seems to grind your gears, children do indeed have rights.  Which is what I was saying all along and you were arguing against.  Why, I'll never know.


::deadhorse::

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Ya know during WWII prisoners had rights but they were subjective to the prison guards how they were or not enforced. I would say on the Batan Death March where thousands died from starvation, beating, ect....there rights were abused. Ya know Uncle Sam made most of them go to the Philippines, they (soldiers) had no choice, even though they had rights.
What's my point.....Parents take the rights away from children everyday. They send their kids to these places knowing they will be subjected to a "Tuff Love" program, well right off the bat you know their rights will be violated.
Yes all children have the undying right to be treated like a human being and they are not. That is why children have rights that can be abused or taken away at any given time by their parents.  
Danny