Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[DannyB II]

Ehh, to some extent I agree with you that parents should be liable for the abuse by proxy or murder by proxy of their children. However, going after the parents only allows the program to keep doing what they have been doing all along. At this point in time going after Sergy's mother is akin to kicking a blind person into oncoming traffic. She's going to suffer for this for the rest of her life, no point in throwing her in front of a bus when's already bleeding out.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:  

Che it has to start with the parents, we have to stop saying ignorance is OK. It is not, in most states you can not say," Well Officer I didn't know you could not turn right on red", it is your responsibility to know the traffic laws of the county. Well I put even more emphasis on parents to absolutely know where there child is going, thoroughly check it out, visit whenever they want to see their child. My God the child is not in prison "per say". Why are we just singling out the facilities it should be a two prong attack.
I'll tell you what if they could somehow in a civil suit, maybe by another family member of Sergey, sue the parents for negligence and or ignorance well that would send a message. Maybe sue for failure to thoroughly investigate this wilderness program, recklessly handing over your child to others with no credentials to supervise said child, failure to live up to your parental duties insofar as telling the whole story concerning your sons dismal attitude that you were to blame for his problems due to your out of control problems.
Here is a scenario that sucks your parents had/have problems since before you were born, they could not parent a woodchuck so now that your older and your showing signs of bad parenting, they (parents) want to send you to a wilderness program, against your will. Your there 48 hrs and you wind up dead. Oh lets blame it all on the program, I'm not arguing that but charges better be filed against the parents also if neglect is found.
Danny

[Whooter]

It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny.  One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective.  Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.

In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.



...

[Ursus]

It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny.  One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective.  Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.

Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.

In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.

How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?

[Whooter]

Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.

Here is one partially funded by US

http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/wrcreport9900.pdf

Here is an independent study overseen by the Western Institute Review board.
http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html

How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?

Well I really dont know.  I would say as long as the place is more safe than where they presently are then it would be a good move.  How safe is public school or the child home environment?  So I dont think counting the number of deaths is going to get us the answer we want.



...

[DannyB II]

It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny.  One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective.  Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.

In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

OK, then let's back up and just put the onus on the parents not to send there kids to these programs.
Danny

[DannyB II]

It would be a huge uphill battle, Danny.  One of the hurdles would be overcoming all the studies which show wilderness to be extremely effective.  Some of which were funded by various departments of the US government and independent researchers and universities.

Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.

In order to show negligence one would have to prove that there was an abundance of information available to the parents showing a high risk of death for placement in a wilderness program which they ignored and there just isn’t any.

How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

This is my whole point you can't go after the programs till after the fact (death), you can't go after the parents not enough pre-meditation, well peeps WTF. What we just keep writing here till someone stumbles across fornits by chance.
No the biggest way to impact the deaths of these children in my opinion is to go after the parents. You exploit them the same way they are exploiting there children, get a article out there for the public to see showing parents are reckless in sending their children to these camps, programs..ect...by golly that will create a stir.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Citations, please? You seem to think that what qualifies for a "wilderness program" is same thing 'cross the board, whether you're talking about SageWalk or a boy scout or girl scout camp.

Here is one partially funded by US

http://http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/wrc/Publications/wrcreport9900.pdf

Here is an independent study overseen by the Western Institute Review board.
http://www.aspenranch.com/outcomes.html

How many deaths is it gonna take, Whooter?

 

Well I really dont know.  I would say as long as the place is more safe than where they presently are then it would be a good move.  How safe is public school or the child home environment?  So I dont think counting the number of deaths is going to get us the answer we want.



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.

Danny

[Whooter]

Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.

I agree it is sad to discuss kids deaths this way.  But I need to disagree with the rest…… if you look at the tens of thousands of kids who pass through programs each year and we see maybe one death and compare that to the thousands of deaths that occur each year outside of programs for just suicides and homicides alone.  That doesn’t include the thousands of drug overdoses, accidents  and the 120 people a day who die in car accidents  which adds up to 43,000/year.

The safety in programs are orders of magnitude safer than being outside of them.



...

[DannyB II]

Whooter your argument for what is safer public schools, wilderness camps, residential schools ect..doesn't really work, does it. If you look into the ratio (which is sad when your discussing kids deaths) deaths per population of school, wilderness schools come in first for most kids dying. So yes public schools are safer, you can escape a public school, just walk away, kids do it all the time it is called skipping school. Can't do that in Montana when you have been blindfolded.

I agree it is sad to discuss kids deaths this way.  But I need to disagree with the rest…… if you look at the tens of thousands of kids who pass through programs each year and we see maybe one death and compare that to the thousands of deaths that occur each year outside of programs for just suicides and homicides alone.  That doesn’t include the thousands of drug overdoses, accidents  and the 120 people a day who die in car accidents  which adds up to 43,000/year.

The safety in programs are orders of magnitude safer than being outside of them.

 



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.

Danny

[Whooter]

I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.

Danny

I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits.  If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death.  If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death.  So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.

But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools.  But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.



...

[DannyB II]

I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.

Danny

I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits.  If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death.  If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death.  So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.

But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools.  But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.

Danny

[Ursus]

I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.

Danny

I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits.  If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death.  If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death.  So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.

But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools.  But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:

I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.

Danny

Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.

Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.

He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.

My guess is that the psychic suffering and torment that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is simply not a reality that Whooter accepts.

[Whooter]

Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.

Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.

He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.

My guess is that the psychic suffering that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is not a reality that Whooter accepts.

Hmmm…Ursus you are putting words in my mouth.

The problem with that is how do you tie the suicide back to the program without a note of some sort?  How do we determine root cause?  Couldn’t a person have just broken up with a boyfriend or has a history of depression?  Why is the program deemed responsible and how do we determine this on a case by case basis.  If we take this mindset then we need to consider that some of the suicides that occur” inside” the program could be due to events which occurred outside (or prior to) the program like receiving bad news from home or uncovering events from ones past during therapy.  The logic needs to go both ways, if you choose to embrace this thinking.

If a guy is driving his car down the freeway and hits an embankment(and dies) several years after he leaves a program how can that be attributed to the program and considered a program death?  I just don’t see the logic.  If you are going to collect data you need to create boundary conditions and stick to them like inside or outside the program grounds otherwise it is all up to interpretation and has no basis for argument.



...

[Ursus]

Hmmm…Ursus you are putting words in my mouth.

Jes' trying to wrap my brain around where you're coming from, Whooter. Did I misunderstand you? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!  

[DannyB II]

I thought you were talking about apples to apples, I was talking about deaths that happen actually inside/outside the public school, like the deaths that happen at the wilderness camps.
Your example can also include the thousands of kids that come out of these programs along with the thousands of kids that come out of public schools. I am more interested in the deaths that happen at these places right now.

Danny

I know, I know, I agree with you, Danny, this is how I use to compare the two (in fact I started a matrix to capture these numbers this way) but I was told they are counted differently here on fornits.  If you speak with Oscar and others here you will find out that if a child is on the way to the dentist and he/she dies in a car accident it would be considered a program death.  If a child leaves a program and dies in a car accident or commits suicide years later it is considered a program death.  So to compare apple to apples we need to look at public school deaths as even those kids who dropped out.
So people here don’t draw the line at being physically on the program premises at the time of death.

But I do feel if we created boundary conditions to just capture those deaths which occurred on site we would still see that programs are safer than public schools.  But this is just an opinion on my part because there is not data that I am aware of to support this either way.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:

I wonder if there is data or if we create data from a certain day like Monday moving forward. Do this for the next year, only deaths that occur on the premises or in the care of escorts, staff, school buses ect....That way we can start talking apples to apples. The per capita ratio between public schools and programs is huge so be careful on your estimate Whooter.
For all you folks who care about aftercare results, I do too I just want to focus on this aspect right now. Suicides are very alarming to me, I personally know of 8 brothers and sisters that have taken there lives since leaving Elan. That was within the first 10 years.

Danny

Danny — According to Whooter's line of reasoning (not mine!), though I could be wrong, those eight suicides would probably have happened anyway.

Again, according to Whooter's reasoning (not mine!), Elan just bought those kids some more time, and in no way contributed to their subsequent suicides unless said deaths occurred right on the physical property. Even in such a case, Elan is probably only responsible for negligence in not having apprehended them in time.

He has said as much whenever the subject has come up, be it suicide or drug overdose, etc., occurring shortly after program.

My guess is that the psychic suffering and torment that one experiences as a direct consequence of having had brain salad surgery performed on one in the guise of "therapy" ... is simply not a reality that Whooter accepts.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Now Ursus I did not get that from what he is saying, your just antagonizing for some reason I don't fully understand yet. I don't think I need to...LOL.  
One thing I will comment on though is the amount of attempted suicides some of these residents had already had prior to coming to Elan. There were many there arms, throats and chests proved that. We had one resident that had plunged a knife into his chest to pierce his heart, he missed but it left a awful scar and the list goes on.
We had so many it saddens me to type this now, this is one of the big reasons I left Elan I couldn't handle the malingering one could do to their body. Did many of these residents succeed, I'm sure they did. Did Elan help to stem this inevitable process of self destruction, NO...could they have, NO (They weren't equipped) did they do more damage then good, probably. I say that without much conviction because the system had failed them much earlier.
Ursus this is a nasty business were talking about where children have real problems with very few avenues to get help, if your parents aren't being parents 24/7 you will probably die...just from consequences. I hate this all the way down to my bones but if the parents don't do there job how do we expect everyone else to do theirs.

Danny