Elan discussion from New Forum Policies

[Ursus]

:jawdrop:  I dont see were the conversation on this or any other thread stops any of you from posting, I am responding to your post.as a matter of fact. I agree that some of the arguments get loud, but they do burn them selfs out without any help from the peanut gallery.The thing I have had with the Seymours burned itself out.I think and can see from thier last post Joel and AAron are done fighting. Who won ?? Well it wasnt a competition no one did, Just some views got shot around.But all of us are ok and maybe grew from the experience. Everyone here is an adult and dont need a den mother to watch us.

:tup: I agree.

[DannyB II]

When people pretty much completely stop posting because of the excess of trolling, what is effectively happening is that he (the troll) is moderating the ability of others to post. This is hardly in the spirit of the forum.

Free speech gives one the right to say whatever one wants; it does not give one the right to say anything one wants, wherever one wants to say it.

IMO it's about time that fornits was much better moderated.  There have got to be some kind of rules, standards.  

Without these, it's just one big trollfest and fornits turns into a farce.  Again, just my opinion.

I think you are taking that quote out of context. It came about when fornits was experiencing some pretty extraordinary trolling conditions which do not, imho, currently apply (at least as of yet).

At the time, it was well nigh impossible - for major portions of the day - to find a single solitary thread on the first page of the active topics thread which did not end with a most recent post containing the highly edifying content of the word "FUCK" repeated for several screenfuls. Or several hundred emoticons, complete with motion, which slowed the page loading for those with less than broadband conditions. Or repeated pics of Hitler and/or Mussolini, I think the specs were at least 1000px wide. Or seemingly endless program copypasta. Let us not forget the explicit depictions of fornication and various debasing poses of men, women, and assorted other mammals.

There was not exactly much content there, to put it mildly, that one could even respond to, discuss, or debate. And this had been going on for several months. It was a flood of trolling. Extraordinary measures were called for. Preferably for as little time as possible, imho.

This is not what we are dealing with now.

Ursus,
I disagree. The rules and policies (posted by Administrators) cover very six very specific points that cover more than simply flooding.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
You folks Inculcate, Ursus and SEKTO have never really had a direct full frontal attack on you personally before that is very obvious, welcome to the world of Che, Ginger, Psy, Whooter Myself and others that have been personally attacked, now you know how it feels it truly gets inside your bones Inculcate, what I have been receiving on almost a daily bases either on this site or other sites. The constant harassment in one way or another. Termites constantly gnawing at your patience's.
Now that you folks feel outraged well, we must change this or that, "where were you for me", (yes I will go there) when I was getting my ass kicked, Inculcate, where, please tell me and all of us. I felt no support from you at all. My moderater!!!!!!!!!
Yes I have some very bad blood that will take time for me to get over but listening to you explain this situation, I apologize just makes me want to vomit.
Danny..........My first reaction of the day, maybe I will get better.

danny

[Ursus]

And there in lies the distraction. which does nothing to expose and shutdown elan..... or does it? Hmm.

Sane readers ,I reckon I forgot about those folks , forgive me please.

:notworthy: :notworthy:  :notworthy:





Need I say more?  

[DannyB II]

Ursus ,,,I'm not sure what you mean this is not what we are dealing with now .

I mean that we are not dealing with a flooding situation, where it is damned difficult to even physically find the threads and posts ya want to respond to, for the load of chaff at the forefront. And that this had been going on for months, and that all other less intrusive and more mediating-type methods had failed to stem that tide.

Ursus  the past three weeks I have felt that if I posted anything contrary to someones belief (no matter how gentle I went about it) about elan ,AA my experiences in elan, any facts about  the program, and the fact that I survivied the program , that the program was going to do anything in its power  (personal attacks and threats)to try to attack my credibility, and survivourship (that I own) of that place. And I find that dispicable,and those are my feelings on the  matter.

And you've been doing a fantastic job! I personally find your posts both eloquent and compelling.

But how can someone disagreeing with you possibly undermine that? Let alone someone who consistently communicates with gutter-level ad hominems, incoherent rantings, and yet with such a clear agenda. Can you not see how that looks to any sane person reading this board?

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Danny spoke:
There is my Mod again on a moderated forum showing his favoritism again, just can't be objective can you, you can't even fake it. I guess you did not get the FYI from your boss, to stop antagonizing, did you Ursus or maybe you just chose to not listen.
Ursus you are antagonizing a already explosive situation, anytime you want to act like a Mod, that would be nice.

Ursus spoke:
"But how can someone disagreeing with you possibly undermine that? Let alone someone who consistently communicates with gutter-level ad hominems, incoherent rantings, and yet with such a clear agenda. Can you not see how that looks to any sane person reading this board?[/quote]"

Danny spoke:
This is your way of "Flaming" my friend and you know it.....Stop. Or we will just resume yesterday (all over again) because then obviously you still want to attack me on here.
I guess dragging around a girl by a car does not constitute "gutter-level ad hominems" does it.
Or is that not in line with your and your partners (Inculcate) agenda.
Do me a personal favor act like you have some sense please and stop cleverly "Flaming" on your own forum.

[DannyB II]

When people pretty much completely stop posting because of the excess of trolling, what is effectively happening is that he (the troll) is moderating the ability of others to post. This is hardly in the spirit of the forum.

Free speech gives one the right to say whatever one wants; it does not give one the right to say anything one wants, wherever one wants to say it.

IMO it's about time that fornits was much better moderated.  There have got to be some kind of rules, standards.  

Without these, it's just one big trollfest and fornits turns into a farce.  Again, just my opinion.

I think you are taking that quote out of context. It came about when fornits was experiencing some pretty extraordinary trolling conditions which do not, imho, currently apply (at least as of yet).

At the time, it was well nigh impossible - for major portions of the day - to find a single solitary thread on the first page of the active topics thread which did not end with a most recent post containing the highly edifying content of the word "FUCK" repeated for several screenfuls. Or several hundred emoticons, complete with motion, which slowed the page loading for those with less than broadband conditions. Or repeated pics of Hitler and/or Mussolini, I think the specs were at least 1000px wide. Or seemingly endless program copypasta. Let us not forget the explicit depictions of fornication and various debasing poses of men, women, and assorted other mammals.

There was not exactly much content there, to put it mildly, that one could even respond to, discuss, or debate. And this had been going on for several months. It was a flood of trolling. Extraordinary measures were called for. Preferably for as little time as possible, imho.

This is not what we are dealing with now.[/quote
Ursus,
I disagree. The rules and policies (posted by Administrators) cover very six very specific points that cover more than simply flooding.

:shamrock: :shamrock:

Inculcate spoke:
Ursus,
I disagree. The rules and policies (posted by Administrators) cover very six very specific points that cover more than simply flooding.

Danny speaks:
Nice try again little one, your emotions are way out in front of your common sense. Read the rules again. You EGO has got to be tamed, really. Your a suedo intellectual, please take care of your ego. It is clouding your ability to moderate objectively.

Danny

[Ursus]

Ursus ,,,I'm not sure what you mean this is not what we are dealing with now .

I mean that we are not dealing with a flooding situation, where it is damned difficult to even physically find the threads and posts ya want to respond to, for the load of chaff at the forefront. And that this had been going on for months, and that all other less intrusive and more mediating-type methods had failed to stem that tide.

Ursus  the past three weeks I have felt that if I posted anything contrary to someones belief (no matter how gentle I went about it) about elan ,AA my experiences in elan, any facts about  the program, and the fact that I survivied the program , that the program was going to do anything in its power  (personal attacks and threats)to try to attack my credibility, and survivourship (that I own) of that place. And I find that dispicable,and those are my feelings on the  matter.

And you've been doing a fantastic job! I personally find your posts both eloquent and compelling.

But how can someone disagreeing with you possibly undermine that? Let alone someone who consistently communicates with gutter-level ad hominems, incoherent rantings, and yet with such a clear agenda. Can you not see how that looks to any sane person reading this board?

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
Danny spoke:
There is my Mod again on a moderated forum showing his favoritism again, just can't be objective can you, you can't even fake it. I guess you did not get the FYI from your boss, to stop antagonizing, did you Ursus or maybe you just chose to not listen.
Ursus you are antagonizing a already explosive situation, anytime you want to act like a Mod, that would be nice.

1. The Open Free For All is NOT a moderated forum.
2. With all due respect, please explain how I am antagonizing here.

But how can someone disagreeing with you possibly undermine that? Let alone someone who consistently communicates with gutter-level ad hominems, incoherent rantings, and yet with such a clear agenda. Can you not see how that looks to any sane person reading this board?

Danny spoke:
This is your way of "Flaming" my friend and you know it.....Stop. Or we will just resume yesterday (all over again) because then obviously you still want to attack me on here.
I guess dragging around a girl by a car does not constitute "gutter-level ad hominems" does it.
Or is that not in line with your and your partners (Inculcate) agenda.
Do me a personal favor act like you have some sense please and stop cleverly "Flaming" on your own forum.

3. With all due respect, please explain how I am flaming here, and how that constitutes "flaming" on an unmoderated forum.

[DannyB II]

Well I woke up this morning thinking we were turning a new page but I guess not because two moderators had been discrediting me and trying to ban me from a forum. How nice.
Lets just go and antagonize a situation that has been out of control all week.
Guys I have asked you two Incucate and Ursus to leave me alone all week, I thought as moderators you could see the value in doing this. Not so.
It is Sunday and you are pissing me off, bad Karma.
Listen please listen, I do not care about the Elan Forum, ban me or whatever so long as it shuts Inculcates mouth up, Ursus get off whatever you have to today, then be done with it.
I'm sure you got the FYI from the boss like I did, MOVE ON. If you and Matt want to talk PM one another, that is just common sense. In this transition period keep your comments to yourself about me as I will also. Transition from insanity back to sane.
If you two have not the maturity and vision to do this fine, then just say so now. Then at least other arrangements can be made to help this transition. In my mind after reading what the boss said, then after getting off what I needed to, I am now moving forward.
Danny

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Ursus stated " Need I say more? " [/quote]








         Touche

[Antigen]

The original context of the quote specifically addressed flooding, and flooding alone.

Moreover, I do think those "rules" are more or less unenforceable, for all practical purposes.

I'm thinking that too. The main problem with declaring a rule against things like personal attacks is that perception of a personal attack is extremely subjective. Especially in this context because there are so many inside references going back to traumatic events of the past.

[Ursus]

Moreover, I do think those "rules" are more or less unenforceable, for all practical purposes.

Why are the rules unenforceable?

Because they are subject to personal interpretation, which includes personal bias. Perhaps like this:

Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!

[/list][/list]

To me, it's very simple, very black and white: somebody reads the forum rules.  If a person can follow the rules, then they can participate.  If they cannot, then they get a few warnings, and if they STILL cannot follow the rules, then they get banned.  

We're trying to have an intelligent conversation about the TPI here, at least most of us are.  This is not the online equivalent of The Jerry Springer Show.

At the top of every single page on fornits is the following description:

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry[/list]
How can you have an "open discussion" if not everyone is allowed to participate?

It's only like The Jerry Springer Show if everyone acts like a nut case. Are you saying that survivors of institutionalized child abuse are incapable of not acting like nut cases?

You might find the ongoing fracas really amusing, and maybe even entertaining, Ursus.  

But most of the rest of us find it really annoying, and at this point more and more participants (actual and potential) are choosing to "tune out."

Fornits loses a lot of people for the simple reason that it's so poorly monitored and moderated.  Rather than sit back and complain, I for one am trying to do something to change that.

I'd be willing to bet you that for every one new and legitimate poster who comes here looking for discussion, networking with other program survivors, and support (after all, that's why I started posting to fornits) there are ten who look at the melee and trolling and choose not to post at all.  And then the whole purpose of this place has been defeated.

 
But, I bet they sure as hell read it!  

I get what you're saying Sekto, but it's a double-edged sword. I think once you censor and moderate with too heavy a hand, there's an awful lot that gets left unsaid. I think you also run the risk of the discussion becoming too one-sided. At which point the true underbelly of the beast never gets seen, save by those who already know it all too well.

Just my opinion, fwiw...

[DannyB II]

Moreover, I do think those "rules" are more or less unenforceable, for all practical purposes.

Why are the rules unenforceable?  

To me, it's very simple, very black and white: somebody reads the forum rules.  If a person can follow the rules, then they can participate.  If they cannot, then they get a few warnings, and if they STILL cannot follow the rules, then they get banned.  

We're trying to have an intelligent conversation about the TPI here, at least most of us are.  This is not the online equivalent of The Jerry Springer Show.

You might find the ongoing fracas really amusing, and maybe even entertaining, Ursus.  

But most of the rest of us find it really annoying, and at this point more and more participants (actual and potential) are choosing to "tune out."

Fornits loses a lot of people for the simple reason that it's so poorly monitored and moderated.  Rather than sit back and complain, I for one am trying to do something to change that.

I'd be willing to bet you that for every one new and legitimate poster who comes here looking for discussion, networking with other program survivors, and support (after all, that's why I started posting to fornits) there are ten who look at the melee and trolling and choose not to post at all.  And then the whole purpose of this place has been defeated.  

Let's change a couple of words in that original quote, and maybe then you'll see my point more clearly.

When people pretty much completely stop posting because of the excesses of a certain belligerent Irish bully, what is effectively happening is that he (the bully) is moderating the ability of others to post. This is hardly in the spirit of the forum.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Sekto,
If your going to continue to talk about me, as you said you would not, at least acknowledge me.
No one has gone anywhere, do a survey and we have just as much posting as any other week, if not more with this fracas. Please lets stay away from all the emotion and state facts.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Hi Aaron ,

LOL ,the cream of the crop   LOL   was what a group of us were called on facebook recently.... the folks that have been trying to expose that hellhole and possibly shut it down  are supposedly the cream of the crop...,

 No Aaron I certianly don't want that doubious honor placed on my head, by a person IMHO that tries to run the program on fornits, and facebook, again in my opinion.

I said my piece on a post that ,Aaron is pulling the cream of of the crop from .... I said my piece as to how the past 3 plus weeks has made me feel.

Has anyone read Lord of the Flies?

Peace

Matt

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I don't see it and maybe one day you will be able to explain it to me in rational terms, but how do you see by what you have done to ex-Elan folk as trying to shut down Elan. You live in Virginia take your butt up to Maine check it out yourself, get a little dirty, go to the racetrack, get a investigator. Then tells us how your trying to shut down Elan.
Lets pool money and hire a investigator, I mentioned this many times. Posting this light weight mumbo jumbo hasn't done anything in 10 years.
Danny

[mark babitz]

Moreover, I do think those "rules" are more or less unenforceable, for all practical purposes.

Why are the rules unenforceable?

Because they are subject to personal interpretation, which includes personal bias. Perhaps like this:

Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!

[/list][/list]

To me, it's very simple, very black and white: somebody reads the forum rules.  If a person can follow the rules, then they can participate.  If they cannot, then they get a few warnings, and if they STILL cannot follow the rules, then they get banned.  

We're trying to have an intelligent conversation about the TPI here, at least most of us are.  This is not the online equivalent of The Jerry Springer Show.

At the top of every single page on fornits is the following description:

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry[/list]
How can you have an "open discussion" if not everyone is allowed to participate?

It's only like The Jerry Springer Show if everyone acts like a nut case. Are you saying that survivors of institutionalized child abuse are incapable of not acting like nut cases?

You might find the ongoing fracas really amusing, and maybe even entertaining, Ursus.  

But most of the rest of us find it really annoying, and at this point more and more participants (actual and potential) are choosing to "tune out."

Fornits loses a lot of people for the simple reason that it's so poorly monitored and moderated.  Rather than sit back and complain, I for one am trying to do something to change that.

I'd be willing to bet you that for every one new and legitimate poster who comes here looking for discussion, networking with other program survivors, and support (after all, that's why I started posting to fornits) there are ten who look at the melee and trolling and choose not to post at all.  And then the whole purpose of this place has been defeated.

 
But, I bet they sure as hell read it!  

I get what you're saying Sekto, but it's a double-edged sword. I think once you censor and moderate with too heavy a hand, there's an awful lot that gets left unsaid. I think you also run the risk of the discussion becoming too one-sided. At which point the true underbelly of the beast never gets seen, save by those who already know it all too well.

Just my opinion, fwiw...

:cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers: Well put Ursus,by the way that post was Sherry Slaten you asked about.And thank you for standing up. :cheers:  :cheers:  :jamin:  :rasta: P.S.the views are at 5990 now

[Inculcated]

As for comments about “DAYTOPIAN rules” Just to clarify; again. The rules and policies  were posted in Élan Forum by administrators.
The request to ban Bannison came to me from an Élan poster and the sentiment about how Bennison interrupts/inhibits discussion were seconded by still another Élan poster.
From there, I did as I consider was expected of me to do, and I immediately contacted Administrators regarding the requests and comments, while adding that I agreed that cumulatively it was time based on the content of his nasty post to Anne Bonney as well as other very blatant attacks.

[karen p]

http://www.opifexphoenix.com/reasoning/ ... attack.htm

Personal Attack

Also Known as: Ad Hominem Abusive

Description:

A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person’s claim or claims. This line of “reasoning” is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual’s characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.

In general, it is best to focus one’s attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.

Example #1:

In a school debate, Bill claims that the President’s economic plan is unrealistic. His opponent, a professor, retorts by saying “the freshman has his facts wrong.”

Example #2:

“This theory about a potential cure for cancer has been introduced by a doctor who is a known lesbian feminist. I don’t see why we should extend an invitation for her to speak at the World Conference on Cancer.”

Example #3:

“Bill says that we should give tax breaks to companies. But he is untrustworthy, so it must be wrong to do that.”

 
Example #4:

“That claim cannot be true. Dave believes it, and we know how morally repulsive he is.”

 
Example #5:

“Bill claims that Jane would be a good treasurer. However I find Bill’s behavior offensive, so I’m not going to vote for Jill.”

Example #6

“Jane says that drug use is morally wrong, but she is just a goody-two shoes Christian, so we don’t have to listen to her.”

 
Example #7

Bill: “I don’t think it is a good idea to cut social programs.”

Jill: “Why not?”

Bill: “Well, many people do not get a fair start in life and hence need some help. After all, some people have wealthy parents and have it fairly easy. Others are born into poverty and…”

Jill: “You just say that stuff because you have a soft heart and an equally soft head.”