i'm refusing to go back.

[try another castle]

I'm pretty sure more than one has been on this board, and the general consensus is that jail is a much better place.

The guards have restrictions on their behavior in jail.

depends on the size of the jail. in a small rural country, yeah, jail is better. In a big city, or crime-infested suburb, it's a different story as is prison. I would choose the worst TBS for a year over going into the "tombs" (nyc central booking) or riker's island for a month.

-They are allowed to beat you if they feel threatened. For example: you're in a holding pen with ten other people. two of them decide to fight. Guards will storm in and kick everyone's ass.
-If you try to escape, they can use deadly force
-You will be locked up with people who are serious criminals, not misbehaved teenagers.
-the food is even worse than any TBS. It's always reject food that isnt fit to be sold in supermarkets.
-if there is a violent event, you may be tased, pepper-sprayed, shot with bean bags and rubber bullets, and possibly shot with real bullets.
-The strip searches for jail are much more in-depth.
-there are no toilet stalls in jail


all of these things can happen in a TBS, but they are rare. In a jail, it's a fact of life.

What the fuck did you do to get into Rikers? And if you weren't there, what is the fucking point of this post? Hell, even if you were, what's the point anyway?

Rikers is a full-on, hard-core, federal penitentiary. Do you really, honestly think that someone (possibly underage) who is in anya's position would be incarcerated at Rikers? For a minor status offense such as running away? Don't you think that's a little harsh? I don't even think juvvie hall can keep you around long for that. Something like six hours..

So when I read some faggot monkey saying she's going to end up in jail, it's obvious he's just trying to scare her. Nice. What empathy. It's a good thing she's smart and knows it's all a bunch of bullshit.

If I were to weigh in on this situation, I'd vote for emancipation. I knew one guy who became an emancipated minor. He was living in a place with a bunch of roommates, had a job, the finances weren't great, but he was happy. At least his parents were no longer trying to send him away somewhere for being queer.


The last thing this girl needs to hear right now are empty threats and tales of woe from people who don't  know shit. Sounds to me like she knows where it's at, anyway.

As a New Yorker, everything that's been said about Riker's is true. Teenagers have died at Rikers. The conditions are brutal. Sure there's a lot less mindfuckery, but as for which is worse, it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

I would say more like an apples and oldsmobiles comparison. But I grok your point completely.

[Anonymous]

There aren't too many juveniles that are sent to Riker's Island. That's a bit over the top.

As far as your standard detention centers or juvies go, the mind fuckery is a LOT less than in even the cushiest soft-pedaling program.

Bad things can happen anywhere, for sure, but I've been in both and worse things happened to me in program than happened in juvie. The people running programs don't see themselves accountable to anyone and they know they can get away with it.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! you obviously have no clue.

half of rikers is populated by juveniles and people under 25. It's run by the bloods, they are an unspeakably powerful force both on the streets, in jails and in prisons in NY. There's also Netas and latin kings, which are alot more mellow, but still extremely dangerous. There's jamaican posses, trinitarios, asian gangs, and representatives of every ethnic crime group on the planet. If you dont belong to a gang going in, the only way you're walking out of there alive and with your dignity intact is by joining one. And Riker's makes prisons in the rest of the country look tame. The aryan brotherhood doesnt stand a chance in rikers.

Mindfuckkery is equal in jails/prisons as it is in programs, it's just different. In a program, if you dont follow the rules and submit to the brainwashing of the program, you get to dig ditches or do PT or something along those lines. In jail, the guards dont tell you what to do (regarding what to think and say), the gangs do. If you dont follow the gang's rules, the rules of prison politics, you will end up having much worse things done to you than being forced to do hard labor. How about the fact that you are property of the state, no longer identified by name but by number? How about being forced to share a 10'x4' cell with two other people? it's dehumanizing, and dehumanization fucks with people's minds more than being forced to think anything a program could whip up.

hows this for mindfuckeery:  You're in jail on drug charges, no gang affiliations, 17 in an overcrowded system therefore serving with gen pop (standard procedure in NYC). Your trial is in three months and you cannot make bail, so you are transfered to rikers. There, you have a choice. You can show your hardcoreness by kicking someone's ass - but in all likelyhood unless you're a 300lb marine, you're getting your ass kicked by your victim's backup - half the cellblock. Then you spend the rest of your time in isolation. You can get under someone's wing, which will probably result in that person transferring you to their cell and raping you on a nightly basis. or, you can join a gang. To join, you're probably going to have to do some dirty work. This means either carrying out a violent act against a member of another gang (which will leave you marked for death anyway by the other gang, leave in in isolation for a few months, and result in more charges) or make a pledge to do work for them when you get out (if you dont follow through, they kill you or do something similarly unpleasant). either way, if you're joining a gang, you're going to have to get used to seeing the inside or riker's on a regular basis the rest of your life.    

Just imagine what being forced to make such a decision can do to someone.....especially a teen.

If you dont call that mindfuckerry, i dont know what you would consider mindfuckerry.



and to the most recent above post: rikers is not a federal penitentiary, nor is it even technically a prison. Riker's is NYC jail, where the majority of people go when awaiting trial or serving less than six months. if you're already convicted and serving more, you get sent elsewhere. If you're facing federal charges or are convicted of federal charges, you dont go to rikers. What did i do to go to rikers? got caught with six pounds of weed in my car. I couldnt make bail for two weeks, i spent the first week in the tombs and the second week in rikers. case was dismissed, the evidence was not handled properly.

[try another castle]

your point?

this will help anya how?


or are you just talking shit about how much you know about prison?

or are you just trying to convince her to go back to the program?


Either way, I don't care. Stop wasting page space. Big fucking deal, I got it wrong whether it was federal or city. That's not the goddamn point.


fuck me for mentioning that to begin with. I was just sick of people hanging jail over a kid's head to keep them in program. Every time I see some  bullshit in this thread about how fucked up jail is (with the exception of blombrowski who was talking more about the pointlessness of the comparison.) it sounds to me like its either by a program shill or just some smelly twat who wants to brag about the joint.

[Anonymous]

btw i was seventeen two months shy of eighteen when i was at rikers.


and the point of the post is that i'm trying to point out that jail IS worse than programs.

but anya does not have to worry about getting sent to rikers, unless she likes to hang around with low-lifes and lives in NYC. Runaways dont get sent to jail (for just running away) for any longer than it takes their parents to pick them up. also, cops in big cities with overcrowded, violent gang-infested jail systems are usually mindful of that when taking people in. If you're small and white, have glasses, are a college student, or are a bussiness-type, they either just write you a summons or put you in with other likely victims. I'm a big guy that looks like he could be a biker or bouncer (although i'm about as violent as a teddy bear) so i did not have that luxury.

[try another castle]

Runaways dont get sent to jail (for just running away) for any longer than it takes their parents to pick them up.

Thank you. That helps.

Unfortunately, Im sure the fucking program is going to tell her otherwise. (related to whichever is the closest jail for her.)

[Anonymous]

of course. deadinsaneorinjail.

but it all really depends on why she's in the program. If she's there because she likes to smoke crack, and if she runs away that's what she's going to do, then the program is the best choice for her because she WILL be deadinsaneorinjail.....because that's what crack does. I have yet to find an example that proves otherwise.

but, if anya is in the program because she smokes weed, wears all black, is a lesbian, and listens to heavy metal while her parents are crazy bob jones university grads, then she will probably not end up deadinsaneorinjail, and she definitely should run away from the program.

Since I dont have the proper information regarding why she was sent away, i cant pass judgement on weather she should run away or not, and you cannot definitively say weather or not she will actually end up in jail, and weather or not the programie was actually telling the truth about her ending up in jail or not.....although the program is probably full of shit and anya probably got sent away for someonething along the lines of the latter example.

[Che Gookin]

Yes, jail can be far worst than a program, and a program can be far worst than jail. I'd guess it all comes down to a matter of perspective. What the hell did you do to get sent to Riker's Island anyway? (ps.. Is Riker's Island the city of New York Lock that used to be run by Bernie Kerik under the Guilanni administration?)

Back on point, is Anya at risk of being sent to jail for refusing to go to a program?

Ummm.. no.

Anya, if you are around the age of 16 to 17 you really ought to consider moving away from your parents. The law ain't going to give a damn once you turn 18. You'll need a good fake id and a fake social security card to get a job. I'm not in the loop as to where to get these items but I remember buying my own in college and it cost me around 20 bucks. It was a flimsy piece of shit that got me thrown out of about half the bars I went into.

Your parent's might well love you, but you'll love yourself more when you aren't doing time in a program. Stay out of the megacities due to the expense of living there. NYC, Washington DC, LA, San fran are are retardly expensive. Though maybe someone here has information about places for cheap rent and so forth that isn't above an opium den ran by the Chinese Triads. (If you do send me an email as I'm considering moving back to the USA in a couple years after the statute of limitations expires in Missouri for various shennanigans)

My top choices are cities like Portland oregon, Olympia washington, and other large college towns that have cheap housing and plentiful crappy jobs.

Here are some tips for job hunting and looking for rooms:

1) Craigslist.. my god.. last year I found an apartment and a job in the space of 48 hours when I lived in the states for 9 months between living in Korea and moving to China.

2) Community bulletin boards at the library and colleges always have room for rent signs and job ads.

Using monster dot com for something like this is a bit silly as you'll be looking for a steady paying job that you can ditch when you turn 18.

Once you turn 18 reclaim your life. Bring along your birth certificate if possible and your photo id. Get a legal state ID and a legal social security card. Go forth and be free..  You can even contact your parents and try to put things together if you feel like it, but be wary. I wouldn't give them your location until you have your legal id in your pocket to prove your age of majority (is that the right word to use?).

[Anonymous]

Che Gookin wrote:  Yes, jail can be far worst than a program, and a program can be far worst than jail.

Jail is far worse than a program.  There is no comparison.  Prisoners get stabbed, violently beaten, raped, executed, live in jail cells that smell, join gangs for protection and there are some that give kill orders.  Your delusions stem from your anti-program mentality.

[Anonymous]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/opinion/29thu2.html

[Che Gookin]

Che Gookin wrote:  Yes, jail can be far worst than a program, and a program can be far worst than jail.

Jail is far worse than a program.  There is no comparison.  Prisoners get stabbed, violently beaten, raped, executed, live in jail cells that smell, join gangs for protection and there are some that give kill orders.  Your delusions stem from your anti-program mentality.

yes because we all know that this will definitely happen to anyone who steps foot in a jail.


To Anya,

Consider what I said about fleeing and ignore the rest of this topic. You might also consider seeing if you can get early emancipation, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one as I suspect your parents my have you thrown back into the program to prevent such a thing.

[Anonymous]

You might also consider seeing if you can get early emancipation

More poor advice.  I am positive Che Gookin thought about about Anya's ability to support herself on her own.  Does Anya have a credible work history?  She does not.  If I were an apartment manager, I would deny her rental application due to a non-existent work history.

[Anonymous]

You might also consider seeing if you can get early emancipation

More poor advice.  I am positive Che Gookin thought about about Anya's ability to support herself on her own.  Does Anya have a credible work history?  She does not.  If I were an apartment manager, I would deny her rental application due to a non-existent work history.

who says she will get an apartment on her own? i'd say it's 10x likely she'll find somewhere else to live, like a freind's house, or a youth organization like the YMCA (to my knowledge, the YMCA in NYC provides small dorm-room apartments available to ANYONE, starting at just 2-300 a month (super cheap, considering similar sized studios but with private kitchen and bathroom in buildings next door start at two grand). bathrooms and kitchens are shared, all you get is a bed, desk, window, and free phone/cable/internet. it's like a long-term occupancy hotel for (mostly) young people. if you cant pass a credit check or have no work history, they move you in on a pay-by-week basis. the one disadvantage to these places is the "renters" dont have the same rights. if you've been behind on your rent, they can kick you right out if they feel like it. the thing is the YMCA is known for being compassionate, and unless theres a line of people waiting to take your spot, you wont get kicked out. they also help people get jobs, sometimes giving people jobs within the organization. I'm sure there are similar youth centers all across the country.

and anyway, i would not deny her if i was apartment manager (also depends on the type and location of apartment). i'd give her the shittiest apt i got...but i would not deny her a place to live. Alot of municipalities around the country have differing laws regarding emancipated minors. in some places, like maine, an emancipated minor cannot be denied work or housing on the basis of age or experience, depending on the job or housing.  Then again, in some places, they cant get enough people to fill their houses so they practically give them away for free....like flynt MI or buffalo NY. there are tons and tons of places to squat....and although you find a real job in those cities you'll do just fine selling drugs or sex.

[Che Gookin]

There is the YMCA.. or hitting up craigslist and getting a room to rent in someone's house. I personally haven't rented an apartment in many a years by doing this. There are loads of cracks in the system if you are willing to look. A gal like Anya is going to have to rely on them rather than traditional rental agreements and such.

Hit up rooms for rent on craigslist. Loads of choices. And most of the time they don't ask for references either. Just flash some green and you are good.

[Anonymous]

If she runs away she'll end up on the streets like all the other homeless teens that thought it was a better idea to run than deal. If she can hook up with some good friends she might be ok, but restarting a normal life might be tough. Some runaway girls end up living with older men who supply them with money and drugs in exchange for, well, use your imagination. In my opinion you are better off in the program, pretend to do well and get as much out of your parents as you can before they figure out you are bullshitting them. If you can get a car, you're pretty much set.

[Che Gookin]

I'd agree with that if I knew the program. Some programs you just can't say yes to ever going back. Others are a bit of a pain in the ass, but doable.