My son at Aspen Ranch

[Anonymous]

Wow, this thread has been thoroughly trolled by TheWho, who has exactly ZERO experience with AR.  He's a mindless troll, people. He also fronts a group specifically created as an Aspen "feeder" business.  All "pro" responses are a single industry shill, folks.  You're getting suckered, OP.

[TheWho]

If all you're hearing is "this program saved my life and there is nothing negative there whatsoever", chances are there is a problem and you are being manipulated. Think about it. Even at the best schools and colleges reviews are mixed ("I liked this but this was so so and this I didn't care for very much").

Psy, surprisingly I agree with you on this 100% on this.  I made almost the exact same statement awhile ago, but when I posted the same observation on the reverse I was slammed for it.  Why wouldn’t it work both ways?
Example, If I change the words from your post and replace them with ruined, positive and isn’t does the statement still hold true?:

“If all you're hearing is "this program ruined my life and there is nothing positive there whatsoever", chances are there isnt a problem and you are being manipulated. Think about it. Even at the best schools and colleges reviews are mixed ("I liked this but this was so so and this I didn't care for very much").

If survivors come on to fornits and their stories contain nothing but negative comments (no positive experiences) then we can assume they are not telling the truth.  This has always been a red flag with me.

[NIGEL]

First of all, thank you to all that have responded.  I want to say that I knew I would hear from people that supported the program and those that don't.  I am listening to both sides and I appreciate the time you have taken to write back.  I realize that there are those that have an axe to grind and they are going to be negative, as well as there are going to be people that answer these posts that have a vested interest in the program.  I also know that there are a lot of people that are giving me their honest opinions and are truly trying to help( I am very appreciative of your help).  

I came away with the following after our first visit:

Positives:  Everyone I met and spoke with (therapists, teachers, staff) were professional and caring (I only base this on how we were treated).  We took a tour of the facilities and they were clean.  We got to go into the academic classrooms and we saw some art that the students had submitted to The Wayne County Art Show(there are some very talented artists at the ranch).  My son was very proud of his submission and he spoke highly of his art teacher.  I believe the equine program is a definite positive (my son claimed that he now loves horses).  The last two reports we have received from the therapists claim my son is doing much better (my son agrees with this).  Our relationship seemed better (albeit for only 4 hours over two days).  He claims he doesn't hold any anger toward me or his Mom and he seemed less argumentative.

Negatives (or worries):  I am not sure who to turn to to question whether The Aspen Ranch is a good fit for my son.  They obviously have a vested interest in keeping him there. There is definitely some hazing amongst the students.  My son feels he has zero privacy and that he is in a Jail like atmosphere.  My son feels like if he badmouths the program, that he will be held back from graduating to the next level.  He feels threatened at times by some of the other kids.  He says there is a lot of negative energy around the place.  

I am going back for my next visit the first week in October.  I talked to my son about putting in his best effort in everything he does and he will eventually reap the benefits.  I am obviously going to have to make a decision to either put trust in the ranch and leave him there, or pull him and bring him home.  I am talking to many people from many different places, but ultimately, the decision is mine.

I want to state again that I value all of your opinions---please keep them coming.

[Anonymous]

1/10

[psy]

Positives:  Everyone I met and spoke with (therapists, teachers, staff) were professional and caring (I only base this on how we were treated).  We took a tour of the facilities and they were clean.  We got to go into the academic classrooms and we saw some art that the students had submitted to The Wayne County Art Show(there are some very talented artists at the ranch).  My son was very proud of his submission and he spoke highly of his art teacher.  I believe the equine program is a definite positive (my son claimed that he now loves horses).  The last two reports we have received from the therapists claim my son is doing much better (my son agrees with this).

Could that agreement have something to do with what you mentioned below (that he is afraid he will be held back if he disagrees with the program).  Hypothetically, if your son was doing badly, I'm not sure he would feel free expressing it.  Then again, if he feels free enough to express some bad things, he might actually be telling the truth.  In the program I was in I had some positive experiences.  I liked what we called "building trades" where we made furniture and...  basically creative stuff.  I felt it was a good relief from the nearly unbearable stress of the rest of the program.  Despite these positive experiences, overwhelmingly, the program was not good for me at all and I feel like it did a lot of lasting damage.  You can read about my experiences under my signature (click the one for Benchmark Young Adult School).

It could also be a desire to convince you that he's "better" in order to come home.  Call it a manipulation but he might have very good reasons for wanting that.

Our relationship seemed better (albeit for only 4 hours over two days).  He claims he doesn't hold any anger toward me or his Mom and he seemed less argumentative.

Well.  That sounds good, but I'm skeptical as to how legitimate equine therapy actually does and how many studies have actually shown it to be effective (or done at all).  The only studies I could find were on heart rates and other stuff related to physical therapy.  To me it seems more like a marketing gimmick riding on all that "Horse Whisperer" crap.  This is the part where I tell you that where some programs aren't abusive, their completely ineffective, relying mostly on "feel good" tactics primarily targeted at winning over parents.

Negatives (or worries):  I am not sure who to turn to to question whether The Aspen Ranch is a good fit for my son.  They obviously have a vested interest in keeping him there. There is definitely some hazing amongst the students.  My son feels he has zero privacy and that he is in a Jail like atmosphere.  My son feels like if he badmouths the program, that he will be held back from graduating to the next level.  He feels threatened at times by some of the other kids.  He says there is a lot of negative energy around the place.  

I am going back for my next visit the first week in October.  I talked to my son about putting in his best effort in everything he does and he will eventually reap the benefits.  I am obviously going to have to make a decision to either put trust in the ranch and leave him there, or pull him and bring him home.

That's basically what it comes down to.  My only comment on that would be that you shouldn't have to trust the ranch.  If communication with your child is unrestricted and he doesn't feel "held back" by saying anything negative about the program, you can trust that what he says is what is happening.  On the other hand, if the program restricts communication and punishes him directly or indirectly for relaying negative experiences, you can't really trust what either he or the program has to say.  This is the primary reason I have such a problem with programs who either censor or monitor communication, directly or indirectly (through asking parents what was talked about).

I want to state again that I value all of your opinions---please keep them coming.

You're welcome.

You mentioned he was talked to by a substance abuse counselor.  Do you really think that's appropriate considering he was just using pot and LSD?  I'm not suggesting you condone it, but I think you might be painting use as abuse in your own mind.  You might want to read this article from Stanton Peele on that:

http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html

As he notes, the problem with labeling a person an "addict" is that they take on the identity and it leads to relapses and habitual use.  If you tell a person they can't control themselves and are powerless, they'll become just that.  It's a sort of institutionalization of the same sort common to criminals...  who take on the identity of "convict" and feel like they can do nothing else.  Even worse in many programs kids are pressured or even forced to take on the moniker of "addict" in order to progress in the program.  Peele, in the above article, lays out some practical suggestions for dealing with kids using drugs.  He recommends against institutionalization.

Some more reading on the disease concept of addiction here:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Even kids who use certain substances on a daily basis are not destined to use it throughout their lives.  The vast majority moderate or quit entirely.  Addiction is not a progressive and fatal disease.  It's simply a pattern of behavior that can be controlled if you teach your kids self control and self discipline.

Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.

So what it comes down to for you is which is the greater of two risks: leaving him in a program where he may be psychologically scarred, or taking him home and taking the risk that he might turn in to some junkie.  I urge you to actually research the likelihood of both.  On the one hand there have been studies done on the drug issue.  On the other hand, there have been no double blind studies done on programs at all (ask yourself why not).  That being said, if you've heard the anecdotal evidence that I've heard from interviewing scores of people from many different programs, it doesn't paint an overall positive picture.

Do your own research.  Go to the MySpace and Facebook groups and ask around.  Talk to multiple kids and compare what they have to say.  If they're all making stuff up their stories won't match, but I'll wager they will.

[Oscar]

Psy, thats a terrible thing to say about those families.  Why would you try to dirty their posts because they dont fit with your agenda?

Nigel, I mentioned that you would need to read between the negative propaganda.  Your son is going to be fine.  Listen to your sons therapist who is trained and licensed and has seen the successes that these other posters were talking about.  He is a professional.

But is this therapist trained and licensed?

A meating at the local board which oversee the licensed staff reveal that it is often NOT the case:

Ms. Taxin explained that Ms. Kucharski contacted the Board Secretary to cancel her in person interview due to the driving distance and requested for the Board to review the application without her being present.

Ms. Taxin stated that Jan Gardner, Licensing Specialist, reviewed the Aspen Ranch website and noted that Ms. Kucharski is listed as a licensed
therapist. Ms. Gardner contacted Ms. Kucharski to have the website corrected.

They could have checked up on the rest of the staff, but they had to consider the risk of loosing jobs and this woman was the only one who was so stupid to apply for a local license so they settled with having her name removed.

[AuntieEm2]

Nigel,

I also know that there are a lot of people that are giving me their honest opinions and are truly trying to help( I am very appreciative of your help).

It is good to see that you are open minded about considering both sides.

I have so much sympathy for the worries and fears of a parent who is trying to help a child. It angers me that programs like the Aspen programs take advantage of parents who desperately wanted to do the right thing.  

Please think carefully about the fact that the US Congress and the GAO saw a need to investigate this industry and are in the process of passing federal legislation to regulate them (HR911 passed the House of Representatives in April with bipartisan support and a more than 2/3 majority). As the forensic investigation documented, this is not a few bad apples, but a systemic problem of widespread abuse, maltreatment, neglect and death in residential programs of all stripes.

Please look at this link to the US House of Representatives Committee on Education and Labor, and read the specifics of the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." http://http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/the-stop-child-abuse-in-reside.shtml Watch the video of the hearings and listen to the testimony of parents whose children died in programs. Read the list of organizations that have endorsed the legislation, including:
•American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry »
•American Academy of Pediatrics »
•American Bar Association »
•American Psychological Association »
•Child Welfare League of America »
•Community Alliance for the Ethical Treatment of Youth »
•Easter Seals »
•National Child Abuse Coalition »
•National Disability Rights Network

And lastly, please do what the parents of my niece failed to do: Ask your family and friends for help and support. Ask if your son could live with them for a time to give you a chance to sort things out. My niece went to a 3 month Aspen wilderness program, and sure enough was referred to a boarding school, and the parents shelled out a quarter of a millon dollars over three years when she could have been living with loving caring responsible family members.

Auntie Em

[TheWho]

Nigel,  When my child attended 2 of the parents pulled their children after several months and they both reverted back to their old behavior almost immediately, neither went back to school.  One became pregnant and moved out and the other moved away a week after getting home.  Their children were able to manipulate them into believing they had changed.  The remainder of my daughters peer group stayed and graduated and all of them were accepted to the college of their choice after finishing high school, with one finishing 6 months earlier than expected.
My daughter wanted to come home also and now she can look back and knows that it was the best place for her.  She never liked being there but it helped her.  Try to get as much information as you can.  Read here on fornits, contact the school and ask to speak with parents who have had kids complete the program.  Speak to your childs therapist with your concerns also.  But don’t give up on your son.  You may not get a second chance if you pull him out too soon.

Good luck with your research.  I know the decision is a hard one.

[Anonymous]

Hey Guest21:

How about for shits and giggles you let Psy link your posts together?  I'd wager all the guest posts on this thread in support of aspen come from the same person.  If I'm wrong I get egg on my face.  What have you got to lose?

[iamartsy]

AEG does not use official therapists. Most kids I know who have gone there have not received any help. I would pull your child ASAP. I have read the pages of kids that have gone there, and they have all had poor experiences.

[Anonymous]

AEG does not use official therapists. Most kids I know who have gone there have not received any help. I would pull your child ASAP. I have read the pages of kids that have gone there, and they have all had poor experiences.

Great post.  The SINGLE poster 'who' is in favor of AR is now claiming his daughter went there but for five loooong years claimed she went to another 'school'.  Very fishy.  This poster, aka 'thewho' runs an Aspen feeder group.  Nigel, BEWARE of Aspen.

[Anonymous]

@Auntie Em - babe, I think I love you.  What a rational, level-headed, measured and reasonable response.  Bully for you, love!  AEG is not where your kids should be...

[AuntieEm2]

Another teen has died in an Aspen-run program.

@ Nigel, I rest my case. Please heed your wife's doubts. Her gut instinct about this is right. If you are reluctant to share this story with your wife, then your gut should tell you that you, too, know your boy needs to come home now--not in October, not in 2 years.
http://http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/portland_teen_collapses_and_di.html

Sergey Blashchishen, 16, died Friday, August 28, 2009. He had been there one day. This is not an isolated incident. We'll wait for the details to emerge, but I expect we will hear the familiar story of events emerge: The teen complains about not feeling well, and is ignored. Then the teen vomits, and is ignored. Then the teen collapes, and the staff on hand is not trained to save the child's life. How many times have we heard this story?

I am so angry. Don't tell me that just because some families have good outcomes in Aspen programs that risking any child's life and well being in these programs is justified.

I note sadly, since this had been one of my recommendations to you, that an attempt had been made to place the boy with an uncle prior to placing him in SageWalk. Please keep this boy and this family in your thoughts.
Auntie Em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More on SageWalk from the Fornits Wiki
http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Sagewalk
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From The Oregonian

Portland teen collapses and dies during wilderness camp hike
by Stephen Beaven, The Oregonian
Tuesday September 01, 2009, 2:44 PM
The Lake County Sheriff's Office is investigating the death of a Portland teen who collapsed during a hike as part of a wilderness camp exercise, a spokesman said today.

Sergey Blashchishen, 16, died Friday after collapsing about 2:30 p.m., said Deputy Chuck Pore. An autopsy was performed on Sunday but the results are incomplete and a cause of death has not been determined, Pore said.

Investigators are trying to find out if Blashchishen, who lived in Northeast Portland, had any medical problems that might have contributed to his death, Pore said. He had passed a physical the day before he died.

Blashchishen was attending the SageWalk wilderness school, a program for troubled teens based in Redmond. He was hiking with a group in northern Lake County between Burns and Bend when he got sick.

"He said he didn't feel good and shortly after that collapsed," Pore said.

The Bureau of Land Management has suspended the permit for SageWalk to operate on BLM land, pending the outcome of the investigation. It could not be confirmed if Blashchishen was on BLM property when he collapsed.

"SageWalk considers student safety our number one priority and takes this incident very seriously," SageWalk Executive Director Mike Bednarz said in a statement.


Lyudmila Blashchishena, Sergey's mother, said she was told that her son vomited and then passed out during the hike, adding that he did not suffer from any medical conditions.

"We are still so shocked," she said. "He always did sports, never had any disease. How could he pass away just from hiking?"

Blashchishen dropped out of Parkrose High School last year, his mother said, and enrolled in the wilderness school on Thursday.

He had worked construction and lived with an uncle before deciding to go to SageWalk.

"He asked me to place him in the boot camp," his mother said. "He really wanted to change his behavior."

--Stephen Beaven; stevebeaven@news.oregonian.com

[AuntieEm2]

Guest21 has a point. Talk to a parent. Talk to Lyudmila Blashchishena, who will be burying her son this week.

Auntie Em

[TheWho]

Great post.  The SINGLE poster 'who' is in favor of AR is now claiming his daughter went there but for five loooong years claimed she went to another 'school'.  Very fishy.  This poster, aka 'thewho' runs an Aspen feeder group.  Nigel, BEWARE of Aspen.

Yes, but in all fairness to the guest poster, like Aunti Em mentioned, it was an Aspen program and she did turn out well while the ones that were pulled went back to their old ways, got pregnant and moved away.  I think Nigel is looking for a little more direction for his son besides what he was getting at home, unless there were local solutions that he did not try, then I could see him brining him home early.  But if all the local options have been exhausted then I think this is the right place for him right now to keep him safe and get him moving along a better path with a healthier life style.
Either direction will not be easy.  It takes hard work to turn around a persons behavior and habits.