blog of a program parent

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Look, Katie isn’t in prison.  It’s a program.

Aside from the word, what's the difference?

Oh... I see.  There is due process for those sent to prison.  They also have contact with the outside world an access to an attorney.  I see.  In prison they aren't trying day in and day out to break you down and strip you of your identity.

I know quite a few people who have been to Juvie and a program.  Guess which one they say is worse, unanimously?

100% agree. You cant seriously think that the program is any better than jail... its not, its much much worse. despite what Psy mentioned that there is no due process and the systematic abuse is much much more prominent, at least in jail you are an adult who has already lived your life, mistakes and all. The teen years are so delicate, the years when the kid starts to realize who they are, separate from their parents and form the basis for the rest of their lives. Subjecting an impressionable teen to an extended period of duress is in no medical or moral sense acceptable. I dont understand how, even in the deepest pit of ignorance and denial, that these kinds of tactics are assumed to be any good for any reason to a human who is in such a delicate phase in their life.

I can understand that some teens need an intervention, and specifically because of these "impressionable years" but If I were running a center for adolescents I would not be providing the same program for a child with a "behavioral problem" as I would a child with a serious drug addiction. The problem is that adolescence has become demonized and criminalized and kids who are simply learning life lessons are being seen as having serious problems. I don't understand how a child who does not do drugs and does not have any significant mental problems should need any "help" especially when the basis of that "help" is considered punishment or so called "Tough Love".

I don't understand why tough love has to be the answer to adolescent behavior... There is no evidence to show that this method does any long term good. Sure, if you frighten a child into behaving they will but it wont help them with their decision making process when they are older. In fact evidence would suggest that instilling the obedient mind state in a child early on only leads them to be more susceptible to fall victim to peer pressure and abuse in the future. Why is it that in order to keep a kid off drugs you cant just separate them from their environment and educate them about the real world? Why do conditions have to be so harsh? What is the point of breaking someone down in order to "help" them to change? and what justifies abuse having any hand in this process? the answer is because these programs are not teaching these kids anything, they are simply beating them into submission to a doctrine that is immoral and unnatural. In most cases they are simply teaching children to be cruel to each other, and utilizing peer pressure to accept and inflict misery as "treatment". All aspects of this system are wrong, not just the jumpsuits, especially considering that they are just one of the thousands of ways that the program breaks you down to a miserable existence.

I know it takes a half way intelligent person to be able to link the tactics used in programs to the long term negative effects (consider doing some research on cptsd) but even the dumbest of the dumb are able to recognize that demoralizing a child is not a medically or morally accepted form of rehabilitation. In fact the only psychological basis that these methods can be traced back to is Thought Reform, which is recognized as a form of torture. There are other, healthy and progressive ways to encourage change in a teens life and until these programs denounce the "Tough Love" system I think its safe to assume they are just being abusive in the name of behavior modification (or more appropriately in the name of a paycheck). I don't understand why these parents aren't able to recognize that the mere existence of these draconian methods is only evidence of incompetence. Maybe if the programs hired professionals instead of basing their program model on the system's created by their now defunct cult-like predecessors, this wouldn't really be a problem now would it? but I must add that in a program that was centered on a helpful, healthy and professional environment, No one would be in jumpsuits, orange or otherwise.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

I just don't understand how they can justify this treatment when only rarely does the ends justify the means.

The end never justifies the means.

I actually didn't mean it like that, I was referring to the opinion of former clients, as in people rarely deem the experience worth the outcome.

[Anonymous]

So if the program wanted the kids to feel like lowly prisoners in gulags they would put them in chains and make them wear stripes.  But they don’t.

So what is the purpose?

No they are not and either do programs.  The kids are not prisoners.

So then the kids are free to leave or to call a state agency at any time, right?  Or in the alternative, they've received a diagnosis that states they are an immediate danger to themselves or others....because that's the criteria for committing someone.

So you feel everyone who works to help kids and find better ways to make their lives better is a torturer.

No, just the ones who use these treatment modalities.  The ones who admit kids into their program without due process.  The ones who use level systems, where the progress of inmates is controlled by other inmates as well as staff (who are quite frequently former inmates).  The ones who feel confrontation breeds a breakthrough.  The ones who won't allow children to speak to their parents unmonitored.


 

You judge programs by the color of their clothes.   Just because it didn’t work out for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t for others.  Sorry you cant see beyond the colors

It's not about the colors, but you know that.

[TheWho]

Oh, I see. You are not saying that WWASP and ASPEN do not hold young adults captive. You are saying holding a human being prisoner "doesn't count" when the human being is under 21.

It all counts.  You need to experience it from the childs point of view.  I drive past one of our local Gulags every day and look at all the little noses pressed against the fence.  They are in there for various reasons, some have both parents who decided to pursue money rather than parenting, others come from a single parent back ground.  Each one has a unique story.  What they have in common is the wish that the fence could come down so that they could run free.
Another time at the Zoo, I experienced a group of high schoolers who were walking thru the Zoo and they were all forced to wear bright colored tee shirts.  I could see how humiliated they must have been being stripped of their autonomy and being forced to be part of a group, with repeated brain washing of “Stay together for your own good”, “Check in with your assigned buddy”.  I am sure they all attended Auswitchz academy and had very little self esteem left.

Just curious, If you raped a 20 year olds after her parents asked you to, since it wouldnt be rape because she doesn't have her "freedoms," what do you call it?

If you rape anyone it is a crime.  It would also be a crime to walk over to “First steps academy” and open the gate to let all the toddlers run free into the world.  If I walked over to the teenagers on their class trip and removed their tee shirts and gave them a chance to chose their own colors they would jump at the chance, but I am sure I would end up being arrested.

Youre like a Nazi who thinks he really isn't "murdering" Jews because you can't muder a Jew anymore than you can "murder" bacteria. And you can't "imprison" a 20 year old anymore than you can imprison bacteria, right, Who?

Wow, now I am the nazi!.  You can murder Bacteria by using antibiotics.  Some believe you can murder a baby by taking the morning after pill.  So it is your choice of what you want to believe and how you define it for yourself.  Pro choice or abortionist... which one sounds nicer.

"When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things."

I guess that "masters" can come to see what they do as normal, too.

Exactly right brother.  That is why daycares have fences and middle schools do not because they kids are condition by years of internment and indoctrination not to run because the consequences are too high.  If the kids resist this social norm then they need to be reprocessed and placed into programs until they comply or they age out of the system and be held accountable by their own actions within the judicial system.

[Miss Antsy Pam]

I know quite a few people who have been to Juvie and a program.  Guess which one they say is worse, unanimously?

My son was in both...juvie (multiple times) and a program.  He would go back to juvie instead of a program without a moments hesitation. He was detained for a short time at the adult jail here in LA County and said it was like looking thru the gates of hell.

[TheWho]

Actually that brings up a good point.  If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed.  If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up.  These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Actually that brings up a good point.  If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed.  If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up.  These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.

This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.

I wish you people would just stop breeding.

[TheWho]

Actually that brings up a good point.  If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed.  If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up.  These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.

This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.

I wish you people would just stop breeding.

So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home?  Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Actually that brings up a good point.  If we could get this information out to the kids it may help to prevent some of them from being placed.  If the kids feel having to follow the rules at home and go to school everyday is too tough and abusive they should experience the structure of a program for a few weeks, I am sure many of them would go back to school and straighten up.  These kids don’t know how good they have it until it is too late.

This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.

I wish you people would just stop breeding.

So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home?  Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.

No, actually my parenting style is much more involved, one that involves building trust and respect between you and your children and being more of a mentor than a punisher. You would really be surprised how well behaved a child will be when they are happy at home.

To tell you the truth I don't have kids, however I have been a Professional Nanny for 4 years and have taken more child development, child psychology and parenting classes than more than most parents I know. I have successfully raised 3 (2 of which would be considered struggling) teenagers who's main problems are that their parents are too self absorbed and self righteous to ever show them love or give them proper parenting. Perhaps if you were actually willing to listen I would be able to give you some parenting pointers but from the looks of it you already get yours straight from the program.

[TheWho]

No, actually my parenting style is much more involved, one that involves building trust and respect between you and your children and being more of a mentor than a punisher. You would really be surprised how well behaved a child will be when they are happy at home.

To tell you the truth I don't have kids, however I have been a Professional Nanny for 4 years and have taken more child development, child psychology and parenting classes than more than most parents I know. I have successfully raised 3 (2 of which would be considered struggling) teenagers who's main problems are that their parents are too self absorbed and self righteous to ever show them love or give them proper parenting. Perhaps if you were actually willing to listen I would be able to give you some parenting pointers but from the looks of it you already get yours straight from the program.

Nothing personal but Nannies are basically baby sitters on steroids.  They are not (or should not be) a replacement for parents.  Also, parents cannot adjust their parenting style to create a desired outcome.  Each child is not a clean slate when they come into this world and each will react differently to identical external stimuli.  So mutual respect and nurturing are both good things but not all kids will respond to them the same way.  Hiring a Nanny is no replacement for parenting as well as a program is no suitable replacement either.  But they are both necessary sometimes.  

My parenting did not come from any of the programs.  In fact most parents are not even introduced to programs until the parenting cycle is near completion and the child is in their teen years.  The program may help the parents adjust a few things to help facilitate the childs transition back into the family, but that is about all I have seen.

[Anonymous]

It all counts.  You need to experience it from the childs point of view.

What makes you think we haven't?  You obviously never have.

I drive past one of our local Gulags every day and look at all the little noses pressed against the fence.  They are in there for various reasons, some have both parents who decided to pursue money rather than parenting, others come from a single parent back ground.  Each one has a unique story.  What they have in common is the wish that the fence could come down so that they could run free.

Those little ones out for recess get to go home with their families at the end of the day.

Another time at the Zoo, I experienced a group of high schoolers who were walking thru the Zoo and they were all forced to wear bright colored tee shirts.  I could see how humiliated they must have been being stripped of their autonomy and being forced to be part of a group, with repeated brain washing of “Stay together for your own good”, “Check in with your assigned buddy”.  I am sure they all attended Auswitchz academy and had very little self esteem left.

Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.  That's very different from putting teens in orange prison garb so they're easier to spot if they try and run from a place that locks them down without due process, halts communication with family and the outside world and forces the kids into all kids of "confessions" so they can realize how "bad" they were.

If you rape anyone it is a crime.

So is forcibly locking someone away in an institution without due process.

"When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things."

I guess that "masters" can come to see what they do as normal, too.

Exactly right brother.  That is why daycares have fences and middle schools do not because they kids are condition by years of internment and indoctrination not to run because the consequences are too high.  If the kids resist this social norm then they need to be reprocessed and placed into programs until they comply or they age out of the system and be held accountable by their own actions within the judicial system.

So, you're advocating re-education camps?  Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process?  Really?  Wow, what color is the sky in your world?

[Anonymous]

This state of mind is exactly what makes parents (or program owners) like you the abusive kind. You think your teenager MUST follow the rules, must obey you at all times and must attain to every social norm... well sorry to break it to you but the teen years are exactly opposite of normal. You really believe that punishment will teach them some kind of lesson, but once you cross the line between consequences and abuse (ie a program) you have gone way to far just to try to keep your kid in line. I just don't understand why parents think they are allowed to fuck with their kids psyche... it just doesn't make sense.

I wish you people would just stop breeding.

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:

So you would just let you kid not go to school and sit around all day at home?  Would picking up the hypodermics off the floor so the toddlers dont play with them too strict or should we just all learn to step over them so Johnny doesnt get upset again when confronted with the rules.
I am sure your kids turned out well if you have any.

No, and you know that's not what we're saying.  What I"M saying is quit outsourcing your job as a parent to strangers who are no more qualified to dogsit than they are to "counsel" kids.

BTW.....Don't know about Fem having kids, but I agree exactly with what she said up there ^^ and I've got two grown kids who are doing just fine, despite me letting them develop ideas of their own and making sure they developed critical thinking skills.  That's just it...these parents FREAK OUT when they discover that the kids actually DO have minds and thoughts of their own.  Again, I refer you to the child in this parent's blog.  She wasn't really doing anything dangerous or horrible.  Typical teen stuff from what they posted.  No drugs, no imminent danger yet she gets shipped off for YEARS.  Un-fucking-believable.

[TheWho]

Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.

Exactly, the fence is meant to keep them in and keep them safe.

That's very different from putting teens in orange prison garb so they're easier to spot if they try and run

No its not.  You cant have kids under age running around the town un supervised at all hours.

from a place that locks them down without due process, halts communication with family and the outside world and forces the kids into all kids of "confessions" so they can realize how "bad" they were.

The daycare kids were never asked if they would rather stay with their family or go to an institution during the day.  I would guess the majority would rather be home with mom and dad.  They have no communication with them and if something gets broken they need to find out who did it and be reminded how bad they are.  Awful places!!

So is forcibly locking someone away in an institution without due process.

So at what age do the kids get to decide?  Age 5, 9, 12, 15, 18 or 21?

So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?

There isn’t a difference.  Different ages, different dangers  The law is set up to keep kids out of danger until they are of age.  Whether that be at age 5 or age 17.  The law dictates the kids cannot be out on their own until they are of age.

[Anonymous]

Mmm hmm....those are small children who could easily wander away and get lost, not intending to do so.

Exactly, the fence is meant to keep them in and keep them safe.

Again...there is a difference between keeping a child from running into the street and keeping a teenager locked in a facility for years at a time.  It's truly sad that you can't acknowledge the difference.  I think even most other pro-program parents would, but then again....you're not really hear to "discuss" anything are you?

The daycare kids were never asked if they would rather stay with their family or go to an institution during the day.  I would guess the majority would rather be home with mom and dad.

The daycare kids were put there for the DAY while their parents work.  The teens in lockdown facilities are there for thought reform and rehabilitation without ever really finding out if they indeed NEED rehabilitation.  AGain, if you can't acknowledge the difference, then you're one ignorant, sick fuck.

So at what age do the kids get to decide?  Age 5, 9, 12, 15, 18 or 21?

I never said anything about the kids deciding.  How 'bout just a diagnosis that states that they are an IMMINENT danger to themselves or others, as that's the requirement for committment?

So, you're advocating re-education camps? Do you not see a difference between a fence keeping a 3 year old from running into the street because they have no concept of what a car is and what an impact with one will do, and a facility for teens in the middle of nowhere, with zero communication between parent and child and no due process? Really? Wow, what color is the sky in your world?

There isn’t a difference.

You're a sick fuck.

 

Different ages, different dangers  The law is set up to keep kids out of danger until they are of age.  Whether that be at age 5 or age 17.  The law dictates the kids cannot be out on their own until they are of age.

The law also dictates that you can't forcibly commit someone without due process, but I guess you guys cherry pick the laws you want to follow.

[TheWho]

Look, STFU, we seem to disagree on various aspects of this and I respect you right to disagree.  But this doesn’t make you right.  In fact you are far from it.  Kids need to be kept safe until they are able to fend for themselves.  Programs don’t decide this the law does.  If you get out and vote then you can lower the age to age 5 if you like.  You probably were in a program yourself and never finished so you are unable to see the larger picture or the benefits and I am sorry you were hurt by the system if you were.  The majority of the kids in programs have siblings at home who are doing fine do to great parenting skills.  Program parents are parents that are engaged with their kids and want the best for them.  They are not absentee parents like many want to believe.  Their kids are the ones on the street corners or collecting welfare someplace.  The problem lies with the child and sometimes the family dynamics.  This is hard to swallow for you but it is the common denominator.  The process of helping these kids may not be perfect but at least they are doing something to help.  You don’t seem to be contributing much by just dumping anger.