Author Topic: Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater  (Read 7347 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2003, 07:53:00 PM »
For once Carey, I agree with you. No one should embellish a real-life story in order to make it more interesting.

however, why you're so upset that the media will draw more attention to the bad camps, etc because of Coldwater is beyond me. It doesn't matter who gets credit for shutting them down, it matters that they're shut down, period.

And please, by all means keep bitching about Coldwater, all you're doing is drawing more attention to it.

Quote
On 2003-07-27 16:26:00, Carey wrote:

""Asking for more detail is not the same as asking for sensational fiction."



When someone asks me to add to my experience, because my experience is not good enough for them, or it is not what they want to hear, then I believe they are looking for sensational fiction.  I never changed what I wrote and it never was put on Sue's website. It was not sensational enough to make it there.   But inlight of everything I have learned about her, I am glad that it didn't.  I would not want to be known as one of her supporters."
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Offline Anonymous

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2003, 09:00:00 PM »
Is Dundee Closed for GOOD??  I thought it was closed temporarily until the investigation into the allegations are researched and while the damage done by a few students are repaired.
                      :???:
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Offline Carey

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2003, 09:37:00 PM »
I can't say whether Dundee is closed for good or not, but I can betcha if it opens back up, it won't operate the same way it did.  The Costa Rican government will be all over them like flies.  So, the question is, will Narvin be willing to open a camp in which all eyes will be upon him?

Anon you said:
"however, why you're so upset that the media will draw more attention to the bad camps, etc because of Coldwater is beyond me. It doesn't matter who gets credit for shutting them down, it matters that they're shut down, period."

I am not upset about the media attention that this film will draw.  I am upset about the creditability that may be lost by those who endorse the film.  I am upset that the story is being portrayed as fiction.
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Offline FaceKhan

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2003, 02:56:00 AM »
Carey said: "So what you are saying is that the true reality of these places is not enough to make a movie about.  The audience would become bored.  I don't agree.  I think the tragedy is in the masses.  It is in those who are told they can't talk, they can't look at one another, they can cross their legs with out permission.  It is in those who's minds are being played with.  I don't think the beatings are what makes the story.  I do think they are a part of the story but they are not the main part of the story.  Most of the kids in these programs are hurt by the subtle abuses that occur, not the beatings.  The beatings are few and far between.  It is the mental abuse that everyone is subject to that should be the focus. If you want to focus on the beatings then the real tragedy that is occuring in these places will never be understood."



I agree completely with what you are saying, I am simply saying that it is very hard to convey that kind of abuse on the screen. I have suggested a few times that if someone wants to make a movie that illustrates the experience of being there, it should be a first person viewpoint experiencing a rap session.

I am not too familiar with the overall issues with Coldwater, I just read through the website a few times to get the jist of it.

It is difficult for all but the most independent of films to tackle such subjects as this.

It is very hard to understand the mental/emotional abuse or brainwashing that occurs in these places. It becomes an issue of how to convey to the audience such an intense feeling of powerlessness over one's own life.

While it is true in WWASP that the beatings are a distant second to the mental abuse, there are a lot of places where that is not the case.

Short term boot camps are mostly physically abusive with forced excercise and beatings as the order of the day. The description of Coldwater sounds a lot more like this kind of place.

I think it is better that we concentrate our efforts on shaping the news coverage, not the movies.

 

     


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No greater love hath a man, then he lay down his life for his brother, not for millions, not for glory, not for fame, for one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.

[ This Message was edited by: FaceKhan on 2003-07-27 23:56 ]
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Offline Carey

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2003, 10:00:00 AM »
You are right it is more important to shape the news coverage than it is to shape the movies.

What about when the news coverage has been shaped to sell the movie?  A fiction movie?  What if that were the case?

Also,when those who are covered in the news turn around and endorse a fiction movie that does not accurately reflect the real horrors  that lie within, it hurts the overall cause.  People will walk away believing that the character in the movie must have been in a "bootcamp" not a WWASP type of "school."
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Offline FaceKhan

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2003, 01:25:00 PM »
Is Coldwater supposed to be a big budget film that is gonna be widely released?

Has anyone here seen the film or are we all just guessing as to how good or bad it is gonna be.

Just because a kid who was at wwasp is consulting with them does not mean the movie can be about wwasp. It looks like its about a bootcamp of some kind and there are plenty of bad things about those too. In addition it says the kid is "sentenced" to Coldwater so it could not be WWASP because no one is sentenced to WWASP although sometimes parents suggest it in lieu of jailtime and the judge, more than happy to save the state some money and assuming that a private program will be better than a prison agrees.
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Offline Anonymous

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2003, 07:49:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-07-27 18:37:00, Carey wrote:

"I can't say whether Dundee is closed for good or not, but I can betcha if it opens back up, it won't operate the same way it did.  The Costa Rican government will be all over them like flies.  So, the question is, will Narvin be willing to open a camp in which all eyes will be upon him?




That would be SO great!  Maybe he'll figure out that boundaries and consequences don't work in the real world - who needs this anyway??
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Offline FaceKhan

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2003, 02:23:00 AM »
There are boundaries and consequences in the real world. Boundaries like the border between Costa Rica and other countries which he violated by bringing in Jamaican staff members with no legal right to work there and by bringing in American teens with no visas to stay there.

Then there are consequences, like having your program shut down for abuse and criminal behavior and violations of the UN convention on torture and the UN declaration of human rights and the rights of children. And hopefully those consequences will include a lengthy stay in lovely Costa Rica federal prison where he can look out on breathtaking views of the rainforest and ocean from behind bars.
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Offline Anonymous

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2003, 06:14:00 AM »
Coldwater is perfect, there are so many victims out there and coldwater will direct attention in this much needed subject. So what if the kid gets all the media attention, hes been through more then all of you people and we all know he is making the biggest difference. There not trying to use the media to sell the movie, this movie is being dedicated to the kids that died or have been killed!

As a victim, I must say that carey's word is pretty worthless in this matter and no one seems to agree with her on her own forms.

Of course carey has a reason to be jelous, but its people like herself that sit at the computer all day long and gripe while a kid is more hard working then her. Then again thats whats so fabulous about my personal opinion!!!!!

Its his article that exploded the media in the first place, and it's him who seems more caring about teens then some people.

Some people like to sit around and waste there time trying to prove a point, but in a suject like this, You bet Coldwater has alot of support.
You can either save teens from these places, or waste your time griping about the people who actually do. Take a good look at the real life survior and read his story, you would make alot of people sick if your going to dis-credit what that boy went through, Somethin tells all of us he's sure saved alot more kids then you carey.

Think about the matter, don't you think you should re-direct your subject rather then making a fan club out of him?

You put so much into your writing, no wondor you never got anywhere in life...

hey personal opinion's are cool!!!!!
make some more boards you looser
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Offline Carey

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2003, 08:57:00 AM »
Anon, I must have really upset you with my words.  You were up late last night responding to my opinions.  I guess other people, like yourself, do read my forum.  The sad thing is that you miss the whole point.  What I am hoping people get out of my words is that there is TRUTH and FICTION.  Endorsing FICTION is dangerous.  

Now, I agree with Facekahn that a fiction movie about "bootcamps" is good.  I also agree with his theory that some "bootcamps" will be depicted by this movie and it may help people to at least start to think "what if this truely is going on?"  But remember this movie is not about WWASP.  It can't be it is FICTION.   Plus, I think it will hurt the class action case against WWASP.  We have "survivors" of a WWASP program backing a FICTION film.  Openly backing a fiction film.  A jury might ask, do they know fact from fiction?    

I would hope that if you decide to respond to my opinion that you do so in a more mature manner.   Instead of attacking me personally, why don't you try attacking what I am saying.  In other words, try and argue about the subject, instead of attacking me.  I know that will be harder for you to do, but it may help you to be taken more seriously.

Ryan is a survivor.  No doubt about it.  I am happy that he is out and that he is helping others.  That should be what all survivors and their families do.  I am just afraid that people may look at this film and his involvement and question his own personal testimony.
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Offline Anonymous

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2003, 11:21:00 AM »
Quote
On 2003-07-29 05:57:00, Carey wrote:

We have "survivors" of a WWASP program backing a FICTION film.  Openly backing a fiction film.  A jury might ask, do they know fact from fiction?    
 


A defense attorney would not attempt to a cross examine a plaintiff about their support of a fictional film "anything," as that would be objected to as irrelevant.

You need to decide what you're protesting here, Carey. Now it's okay for Coldwater to be fictional as it might close other bootcamps, but it's still bad because it's not about WWASP? How do you know it's not based upon WWASP? Have you read the script? Regardless, you still won't acknowledge the fact that the producers are doing a NON-FICTION documentary, which WILL be about WWASP and others. What can you find wrong with that? I anxiously await your response.
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Offline Carey

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2003, 12:00:00 PM »
Why it is ok to do a documentary with out the risk of slander? Why can't the movie be done just the same?  

If it is ok to tell the truth in a documentary with the DVD release, then why can't the movie be done as true to life?

If it is about WWASP,
yet promoted as FICTION
AND
endorsed by "survivors" of WWASP programs,
then what are you saying,  

that the survivors are making up a story to sell the movie?  I believe that is exactly what a lot of people will think. I find what is happening in these places to be unbelievable.

You can't have it both ways.  Is it FACT or is it FICTION?  If you want to be a part of a fictional movie about 'bootcamps" go ahead.  But then when you give your testimony about your experience, don't be surprised if people don't believe you.

But I will ask you this once again, why is it that a documentary can be done and attached to the DVD with out the risk of slander? Why can't the movie be done, not as fiction, without the risk of slander.  Is it because it would not be as exciting?  Why?

I still question how all of this came to play.  Your trips to Casa, Ryan's release from Casa in which Sue played a part, Tim getting word of Casa etc.  The movie was in the works first, then the news broke.  It just goes along with your willingness to endorse fiction.
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Offline Deborah

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2003, 12:56:00 PM »
Carey,
I've following this discussion and theoretically agree with you. In a perfect world, fact would be fact and fiction would be fiction. We don't live in that perfect world.
We do live in a world where the majority of people know and understand that many truthful accounts are presented as fiction. The writer/producer wants to be able to "embellish" where they like.
Personally, I don't put much weight on this movie, or any documentary based on fact, shutting down the industry. Or making any significant difference. It's just not going to happen that way. There's too much politics involved. Most people will watch it (even a factual documentary), say "how terrible" or "the kid must have deserved it", then go back to their apathetic lives. This is not the basket to put our eggs into.
It's not realistic, from my perspective to expect so much of this one piece of entertainment. Yes, entertainment, it's a movie, provocative, but a movie.
I visited a message board and read young people's thoughts and interests about this movie. They don't have a clue what it's about. They don't know about WWASP or how many of these places actually exist. They are interested in other aspects of the movie and will see it because they appreciate the producer.
And, it's not the producer's responsibility to depict the truth and expose all the horrors of WWASP. I find it admirable that they will honor the teens who have died and that they provide links at the movie webpage. That alone will raise a few eyebrows and may cause people to do a little surfing to find out more. Surely those who do will stumble upon this message board, or a similar one. THEN, they can read real life accounts.
As to the testimony. No one can predict how that will go. Your fears are valid to the point that the judge may be ignorant. Let's hope for the best. Personally, I can't imagine why someone involved in a lawsuit would purposely take any action that would harm the case, further that their attorney would allow such.
If you are beating around the bush trying to expose that there are some shady dealings then perhaps you should just speak your imaginings. I get the feeling that you may be privy to inside information that you are only hinting about, or posing questions about in hopes that someone else will do the research to prove your imaginings.

I highly respect you. When I read that you broke your kids out of Dundee, I saved the article, even posted it here. You became one of my heroes (and still are) and stood out as a brave example to other parents. My hope for you is that you are able to put this on the back burner and wait to see what the final outcome is, put your attention elsewhere. Or investigate, dig deeper and present some facts that support your imaginings. (I don't mean imaginings in a negative way- we all imagine possibilities, everyday) Honestly, I still remain a bit confused and have a couple of times questioned why you were so consumed with this issue and the fact that it will be fictional.
The point that we live in a world that is less than perfect has been established, and that this movie will not be the "saving grace" for those still incarcerated. No sense to continue beating a dead horse. My greatest fear is that you, one of the staunchest allies in this effort, will loose credibility because you are so defensive about this issue.  
With genuine respect,
Deborah
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Offline Carey

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2003, 01:13:00 PM »
Thanks Deborah.  I respect your opinion and value your support.  

I do know things that others don't and I have had dealings with some invovled that lead me to question the topic that I have addressed.  The problem is, I can not share it on this public board.  At least not at this time.

I agree with you, enough said.
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Offline Deborah

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Chris/Ryan/Tim...Coldwater
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2003, 02:45:00 PM »
Thanks for validating my imaginings. It all makes sense now.  Not everyone knows all you do and it is difficult for folks to get behind and support someone if they don't have the full picture. And, it's easy for folks to draw wrong conclusions when the issue is continually debated, without all the pertinent info.
I look forward to the time when all the FACTS you know can be exposed.
Deborah
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700